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Lossiemouth Upgrades

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Lossiemouth Upgrades

Old 17th Nov 2019, 23:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
They won't pay - after all they have the excellent example of the current UK PM threatening to just walk away from obligations in a political divorce.
They would lose the annual £2000 per head subsidy currently shipped north.
When there is /if there is a second indyref, I demand a vote.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 23:30
  #22 (permalink)  
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But surely that depends on several factors, I foresee if Scotland splits away from the Union then the rest of the U.K. will enter into negotiations as to where and what we will provide or not and that it will be tied to assurances over the likes of Faslane. Which the SNP have already made clear they want shot off.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 23:41
  #23 (permalink)  
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Berwick to Carlisle is NOT the border, that border was the Roman one, The border is about 8 miles North of Carlisle nr Gretna.
I know because I originate from there, our family name is one of the families that hark back to the Border Rievers, a bunch of murderous cutthroat borderers that used to roam the lowlands of Scotland, raping and pillaging the local Scottish population.... If they do get independence, one does wonder if the family can take up their old trade again
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 00:56
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
They would lose the annual £2000 per head subsidy currently shipped north.
When there is /if there is a second indyref, I demand a vote.
Your authority for this figure of £2000 is? And, why do you demand a vote in IndyRef2? Here's a thought. Instead of having a second independence referendum, why doesn't the Westminster parliament simply legislate to split up the union if Scotland is such a drain on resources? Think how rich and powerful an Independent England would be on its own.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 06:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Getting back to Nutloose's original observation, RAF planners and DE&S procurers are in a difficult position.

Many of them will still recall that one of the successful components of the RMPA/Nimrod 2000/Nimrod MRA4 programme (a relative term, given it was a certainty to fail) was the infrastructure at Kinloss, much of which was on schedule when (at various times) the programme was extended, and finally cancelled. (It remains unclear if the huge cost of this was included in the headline ~£4Bn waste).

Given the tendency of the Services to change requirements, sometimes with legitimate reason, such background, but still fundamental, tasks are fraught with the risk that they may be rendered redundant before being put to use. My guess is this was all recognised and a decision made not to commit too early.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 07:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tucumseh View Post
Getting back to Nutloose's original observation, RAF planners and DE&S procurers are in a difficult position.

Many of them will still recall that one of the successful components of the RMPA/Nimrod 2000/Nimrod MRA4 programme (a relative term, given it was a certainty to fail) was the infrastructure at Kinloss, much of which was on schedule when (at various times) the programme was extended, and finally cancelled. (It remains unclear if the huge cost of this was included in the headline ~£4Bn waste).

Given the tendency of the Services to change requirements, sometimes with legitimate reason, such background, but still fundamental, tasks are fraught with the risk that they may be rendered redundant before being put to use. My guess is this was all recognised and a decision made not to commit too early.
I think its even simpler than that. The decision to procure Poseidon OTS, off the back of an existing USN order, essentially meant the lead time between order and delivery was much shorter than would typically be the case, if we'd had a long winded procurement, bespoke purchase, etc.

Then factor in the time to firm up a basing decision, draw up requirements, let the contracts, start building, and you end up where we are today.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 08:52
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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In fact the threat from up north is so serious, Keflavik might get some temporary residents in the near future a a guess
You do know there are temporary air policing dets at Keflavik all the time? Most recent Italian F-35As.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 09:40
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps re-base to the Shetlands............
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 09:42
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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PEDANT ALERT

"Berwick to Carlisle is NOT the border, that border was the Roman one,"

Wrong Nut - the original Roman border was Hadrian's Wall from west of Carlisle to Wallsend along the N side of the Tyne Valley . Then for about 80 years it ran across the center of Scotland at the Roman turf Wall.

Berwick never featured on any Roman border

The current border was, and is, really a line along the high ground - for years it was a "debatable land" and kings of Scotland & England owned land on either side of the current line
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 09:50
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
I think its even simpler than that. The decision to procure Poseidon OTS, off the back of an existing USN order, essentially meant the lead time between order and delivery was much shorter than would typically be the case, if we'd had a long winded procurement, bespoke purchase, etc.

Then factor in the time to firm up a basing decision, draw up requirements, let the contracts, start building, and you end up where we are today.
Yes, agreed, perfectly valid points and likely. Nevertheless, the approval to commit funding would not (should not) be granted until all the ducks are lined up. The cunning procurement strategy for the aircraft would have to be accompanied by a viable plan on how to put them to use and support them. Otherwise, no Technical and Financial Approval (a technical function) or Financial Endorsement (a financial function). Someone (God -1) has agreed this timing quite some time ago and decided to live with any hassle. Get the contract let in case Jeremy gets in!
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 10:00
  #31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
PEDANT ALERT

"Berwick to Carlisle is NOT the border, that border was the Roman one,"

Wrong Nut - the original Roman border was Hadrian's Wall from west of Carlisle to Wallsend along the N side of the Tyne Valley . Then for about 80 years it ran across the center of Scotland at the Roman turf Wall.

Berwick never featured on any Roman border

The current border was, and is, really a line along the high ground - for years it was a "debatable land" and kings of Scotland & England owned land on either side of the current line
I know, I don't know why I copied his Berwick over, I was thinking football as it is a English team in the Scottish league as it was easier to travel too. At my end it finishes at Bowness on Sands if you want to be precise which is next to Port Carlisle.
It is about 200 yards from my late mums house and I used to drive / walk over it every day for the first 16 years of my life.

As for the floating border, at one time it was just outside Derby.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...order-Reivers/

but hey ho, back on subject
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 10:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
PEDANT ALERT
Bigger pedant. Shetland. Kings (and Queens) of Scots.

Sorry to any Jocks if I've got that wrong. As an Irishman brought up in Scotland, I only have the right to be both vague and mean.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 12:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by M609 View Post
You do know there are temporary air policing dets at Keflavik all the time? Most recent Italian F-35As.
not even most recent... the RAF are their now...

https://www.janes.com/article/92569/...ons-to-iceland
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 20:54
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
But surely that depends on several factors, I foresee if Scotland splits away from the Union then the rest of the U.K. will enter into negotiations as to where and what we will provide or not and that it will be tied to assurances over the likes of Faslane. Which the SNP have already made clear they want shot off.
Speaking as someone who has spent quite some time there, Nutty, I really feel that's a little too drastic!

Jack (aka Jock)
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 21:07
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
PEDANT ALERT

"Berwick to Carlisle is NOT the border, that border was the Roman one,"

Wrong Nut - the original Roman border was Hadrian's Wall from west of Carlisle to Wallsend along the N side of the Tyne Valley . Then for about 80 years it ran across the center of Scotland at the Roman turf Wall.

Berwick never featured on any Roman border

The current border was, and is, really a line along the high ground - for years it was a "debatable land" and kings of Scotland & England owned land on either side of the current line
Then there's the Antonine Wall.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 21:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
PEDANT ALERT

"Berwick to Carlisle is NOT the border, that border was the Roman one,"

Wrong Nut - the original Roman border was Hadrian's Wall from west of Carlisle to Wallsend along the N side of the Tyne Valley . Then for about 80 years it ran across the center of Scotland at the Roman turf Wall.

Berwick never featured on any Roman border

The current border was, and is, really a line along the high ground - for years it was a "debatable land" and kings of Scotland & England owned land on either side of the current line
Originally Posted by AnglianAV8R View Post
Then there's the Antonine Wall.
Like wot Asturias sed....

Jack
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 10:58
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
But surely that depends on several factors, I foresee if Scotland splits away from the Union then the rest of the U.K. will enter into negotiations as to where and what we will provide or not and that it will be tied to assurances over the likes of Faslane. Which the SNP have already made clear they want shot off.
The SNPs manifesto for independence at the referendum clearly stated that they intend to have their own Scottish armed forces, including a squadron of Typhoons, a squadron of Hercules' and a few frigates, as well as the traditional Scottish army regiments. The problem with this is that the majority of personnel at Scottish RAF bases are English, they are there because they were posted there. I doubt that there are enough Scottish Typhoon pilots in the RAF to man a squadron, even if they wanted to join the Scottish Air Force.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 11:46
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alan Baker View Post
a squadron of Typhoons, a squadron of Hercules' and a few frigates, as well as the traditional Scottish army regiments.
Where do SNP get the idea that they'll be given these assets? They belong to the UK, and will still do so after Scotland has departed.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 12:04
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Video Mixdown,

I guess the Scottish Independence Party (for that is what they are) think that because income tax raised in Scotland was used (in part) to buy these defence assets, that have some ownership of them.
As many have pointed out, there is a manning issue. There are, I suspect too few people trained in the broad range of skills required who would wish to locate in Alba.
This could be rectified in time, but it would entail a 'Free Scotland' to either set up training schools or pay for the tuition at English, or other units.
Their 'wish list' of assets to which they feel 'entitled to' are beyond what they have costed in terms of setting up and running.
Like most of their manifesto ... it is deeply flawed.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 12:55
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
Video Mixdown,
I guess the Scottish Independence Party (for that is what they are) think that because income tax raised in Scotland was used (in part) to buy these defence assets, that have some ownership of them.
Agreed, but itís equally possible to argue that being a member of an organisation that has used your membership fees to buy assets doesnít entitle you to take a portion of those assets with you if you decide to leave. I agree with you about the SNP manifesto - itís a pity that it gets so little real scrutiny.

Best regards from another ex-denizen of HAS59!
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