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Tornado GR4 last flight

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Tornado GR4 last flight

Old 19th Mar 2019, 06:11
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Cosford

It was pretty tight for the Jags to land at Cosford (3700’) with a brake chute it was possible to stop in 2000-2500’ and the temporary cable made it legal but it definitely focused the mind.

How would it be for a Tornado? Is reverse thrust enough to stop in that distance without relying on the cable?

If indeed they are destined for Cosford, my feeling is that they will be road moved but I’m happy to be proven wrong.

BV
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 06:58
  #362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post


How would it be for a Tornado? Is reverse thrust enough to stop in that distance without relying on the cable?



Stoppable using thrust reverse & wheelbrakes in <2500ft, depending on weight/headwind/pilot.

I doubt there's the appetite for that risk though.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 08:18
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Stopping a clean GR4 in that distance with TR would be no problem at all. If Rev/Rev doesn't appear for whatever reason it would be rather tense.

An approach end cable engagement is more reassuring.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 08:24
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How times have changed -‘appetite for risk’. I remember the day that an ‘expired’ Vulcan was landed on the grass at Halton.
Well if ‘it’ gets damaged, then it’s a suitable subject for training recovery and repairs.
But not necessarily a situation befitting the valued service of a Tornado.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 08:43
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Originally Posted by 1.3VStall View Post
So when is the last UK Tornado flight going to be? The airframes destined to be used at Cosford for techie training are surely going to be ferried in there - aren't they?
It's already happened, apparently. The singleton for the disbandment parades last Thursday was it. The end.

Any further 'deliveries' will indeed be conducted by road.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:07
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But not necessarily a situation befitting the valued service of a Tornado.
This is key. To my mind the Tornado Force have handled this whole episode exquisitely. Events for public consumption followed by an immaculate parade, flypast and dinner to round off the aircraft’s service. There were around 1,000 there to witness the last see-in, having moments before exited from the parade. Any more flying after that would just be rather undignified and there is no way those flypasts would have been authorised as part of a delivery sortie. So why fly any more? All things must come to an end and this was a really superb way to do it.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:07
  #367 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
How times have changed -‘appetite for risk’. I remember the day that an ‘expired’ Vulcan was landed on the grass at Halton.
Well if ‘it’ gets damaged, then it’s a suitable subject for training recovery and repairs.
But not necessarily a situation befitting the valued service of a Tornado.

The Vulcans and the Comet were all used for ground run training at one time so their " arrival " didn't have any long lasting damaging effects.

There's an irony, as others have said, about getting the airframes to Cosford, if that's the intention, because in a different era, BA landed a 707 and a 1-11 there plus a few other large airframes were also flown in. However, the VC10 carried out 2, presumably trial approaches, and then went home to Brize before coming back later by road.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:38
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There's an irony, as others have said, about getting the airframes to Cosford, if that's the intention, because in a different era, BA landed a 707 and a 1-11 there plus a few other large airframes were also flown in. However, the VC10 carried out 2, presumably trial approaches, and then went home to Brize before coming back later by road.
Why would there be any irony there? It depends on what the ODM says the stopping distance is in the intended and possible emergency conditions. There is no way that a Tornado can be stopped 'brakes only' at Cosford with any amount of diversion fuel on board. That makes a safe landing contingent on deployment of thrust reverse or engaging an arrestor cable. Systems aren't engineered to the same levels of assurance in combat aircraft as in airliners, and Kandahar 2009 reminded us that while cables may be good enough as a contingency for rare failures or when there's no acceptable operational mitigation, they are not infallible. If the 707 had a good primary and secondary stopping option then all power to its elbow.

If it was all done on the hope that a simplex system worked as intended then I can only point to the steep decline in accident rates per flying hour since the era of such exploits and say that I am not in favour of returning to those days.

Last edited by Easy Street; 19th Mar 2019 at 10:00.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 09:54
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Easy Street.

Now you’ve done it. Pure heresy I tell you.

The accepted facts on here are that everything was far better in the good old days.

I absolutely agree with you by the way.

BV
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:06
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
How times have changed -‘appetite for risk’. I remember the day that an ‘expired’ Vulcan was landed on the grass at Halton.
Well if ‘it’ gets damaged, then it’s a suitable subject for training recovery and repairs.
But not necessarily a situation befitting the valued service of a Tornado.
Does anyone have any pictures of that event?
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:13
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
I thought you needed 20/20 vision to be a pilot!

TSR.2 is one ugly beast. The Tornado by comparison is stunning. The F.3 even more so.... a lean, mean, fighting machine.......
I always thought the TSR2 looked very Thunderbirds - espec. with those downturned wingtips.
By contrast - the mighty fin's fin was, well, a little too mighty.
Why?
Would it have yawed like a bastard if it was any smaller?
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:29
  #372 (permalink)  
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" If it was all done on the hope that a simplex system worked as intended then I can only point to the steep decline in accident rates per flying hour since the era of such exploits and say that I am not in favour of returning to those days "

Which actually supports what I said with the my use of the word irony given these arrivals were in a different era and one I am far from nostalgic for.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 16:41
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Originally Posted by Flyeruk View Post
Does anyone have any pictures of that event?
Vulcans sixty year anniversary tour and where it isn't going..

Vulcans sixty year anniversary tour and where it isn't going..

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Old 19th Mar 2019, 18:21
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The Station Commander made it absolutely clear that there will be no more Tornado flying after March 14th, when I met him in February, which surprised me because I knew they had to remain Combat Ready until the 1st of April..
Jets that are being preserved will be delivered to their final destinations by road.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 19:08
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Stopping a clean GR4 in that distance with TR would be no problem at all. If Rev/Rev doesn't appear for whatever reason it would be rather tense.

An approach end cable engagement is more reassuring.
Trials were done many years ago. Fit included tanks & outboard pods (simulating RTB from a war sortie) and the average stopping distance was, I think, around 2200ft using pre-selected full thrust reverse technique with max braking. Not sure of the wind conditions, but the conclusion was that an average sqn pilot should manage <2500ft. Yes, a Rev caption would arouse ones interest which is why it was only considered as an option returning to a base that was operating MOS following an enemy strike.

Peacetime runway minimas when I was there were 6000ft plus a cable or 7500ft without.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 11:10
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JAJ, I only intended to agree with you and yes, relying on TR is a fools errand. In the mid-90s a bunch of heavyweight landing profiles were looked at again due to op requirements as well as the repeated NWS issues. PATR made no discernible difference to average landing roll when compared to just PALD with manual TR. For short runways the app end cable was the most assured means of recovery and for a brief period we did repeated engagements at Marham to produce data for wear rates. As an aside, the II(AC) jets operating from the line had repeated problems dropping the hook; a problem that went away with the move to the HAS site and the routine shutdown hook-drop.

I gather the F3 used the app end cable on the short runway at MPA with reasonable frequency, taking away variables with TR, NWS and the howling crosswind.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 11:58
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Hmm, saw the Jag display jet land and turn off at 1800' on 27 at Bruggen in '86. Tyres deflated.
I think it is wise to practice with lots of margin and save your luck for a rainy day. Would be pretty poor show to crash a jet at Cosford, OTOH I am sure an average Tonka pilot would be fine, especially with a temporary RHAG.

OAP
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post


This is key. To my mind the Tornado Force have handled this whole episode exquisitely. Events for public consumption followed by an immaculate parade, flypast and dinner to round off the aircraft’s service. There were around 1,000 there to witness the last see-in, having moments before exited from the parade. Any more flying after that would just be rather undignified and there is no way those flypasts would have been authorised as part of a delivery sortie. So why fly any more? All things must come to an end and this was a really superb way to do it.
Although I hear what you are saying in that respect, I still think there should have been some opportunities for the togs to get their pics of the newly painted Tornado's in their natural environment..........at very low level in the loop / Lakes / Moffat, wings swept, burners in (optional !). The fact that the jets and crews weren't given that opportunity is absolutely criminal in my humble opinion

Memories fade, but photographs last a lifetime !!
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:15
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tiger G View Post
Although I hear what you are saying in that respect, I still think there should have been some opportunities for the togs to get their pics of the newly painted Tornado's in their natural environment..........at very low level in the loop / Lakes / Moffat, wings swept, burners in (optional !). The fact that the jets and crews weren't given that opportunity is absolutely criminal in my humble opinion

Memories fade, but photographs last a lifetime !!
Whats a 'Tog'?

Tornado's were bombing round the low level system for best part of 40 years - I think you had a bit of a chance to get a photo or two.


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Old 21st Mar 2019, 12:22
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Originally Posted by typerated View Post
Whats a 'Tog'?

Tornado's were bombing round the low level system for best part of 40 years - I think you had a bit of a chance to get a photo or two.
A "tog" is a plane spotter. The people who's photographs have helped immortalize this iconic jet.

The Tonka's painted up especially for the disbandment didn't go through the loop, as there has been a ban on low level sorties through there since last year. Hence there are no decent pics of them doing what they do best
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