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PBN required for the Military

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PBN required for the Military

Old 20th Sep 2018, 13:23
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PBN required for the Military

are you guys in the UK receiving any kind of PBN training? It will be necessary for many routes and approaches from now on and it will be a minimum requirement t for the IR in August 2020.

I am not sure if military operators are exempted from this.

Regards
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 17:34
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PBN? Post Brexit Nightmares (for the remoaners)? Pre Bar Nutrients (eating’s cheating)?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 17:52
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PBN= “Performance Based Navigation”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perf...sed_navigation

It’s under the auspices of ICAO so I’m not sure how much relevance it will have to a lot of what the military does but aspects of it (e.g. RNAV approaches, knowledge of the various procedures and requirements) is increasingly being checked/tested on a regular basis and qualifications added as licence endorsements in the civil world.....

Last edited by wiggy; 20th Sep 2018 at 20:35. Reason: .not..added
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 19:48
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It has massive relevance. The civvies are rapidly moving away from radio based due to cost. That means rapidly reducing availabilory of VORDME and ILS. It just costs too much. Once CAT 3 autoland APV VNAV is the norm, forget using civvie bases as diversions. Issues with certification of systems as civilian certified RNP sensors is problematic. There is already airspace certified as RNAV only through Europe and the Middle East. No certification (to civilian equivalent standard)? No play. And as it was introduced for capacity reasons, forget an exemption during busy periods.

​​​​​​Certainly be interesting to see how we will cope with only three major radio nav aids in the UK as well. There are other cns atm issues on top of PBN.

So can't do anything until probably d day -6 months, then there will be panic as we try to meet the equipment, operational and training requirements, a la 8.33 spacing.

Also, fms based 4D nav requirements are inbound in the next few years.

Bedtime reading:

​https://www.eurocontrol.int/publications/civil-military-cnsatm-interoperability-roadmap​​​​​​

Last edited by VinRouge; 20th Sep 2018 at 23:20.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 20:17
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Based on 8.33 it will be D +6 months +
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 23:19
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
It has massive relevance and people need to wake up to it. The civvies are rapidly moving away from radio based due to cost. That means rapidly reducing availabilory of VORDME and ILS. It just costs too much. Once CAT 3 autoland APV VNAV is the norm, forget using civvie bases as diversions. Issues with certification of mil spec GPS as a civilian certified RNP sensor, plus others. There is already airspace certified as RNAV only through Europe and the Middle East. No certification (to civilian equivalent standard)? No play. And as it was introduced for capacity reasons, forget an exemption during busy periods.

​​​​​​Certainly be interesting to see how we will cope with only three major radio nav aids in the UK as well.

PTs aware, unfortunately as per usual, CNS ATM compliance is dull compared to shooty warry stuff and wont be looked at. There are other cns atm issues on top of PBN.

So can't do anything until probably d day -6 months, then there will be panic as we try to meet the equipment, operational and training requirements, a la 8.33 spacing.

The fact we need to get from A to B to use said warry stuff seems to have been lost.

I will be bemused to see how we will meet 4D nav requirements we have inbound in the next few years.

Bedtime reading:

https://www.eurocontrol.int/publicat...​​
As ever, PTs (DTs now, for Delivery. Do keep up with the unnecessary changes to nomenclature) can want or recommend what they want, but it's up to Air Command to decide what they wish to spend their money on: DE&S do not hold the purse strings. It'll be interesting to see what progress is made against this requirement.
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 05:15
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Once CAT 3 autoland APV VNAV is the norm
i hope youíre not holding your breath on that one. A particularly difficult nut to crack.

As for the rest, I agree.
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 05:31
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Currently there is an exemption in place which means that UK IR holders do not need PBN endorsement unless they wish to fly PBN approaches or in airspace which mandates <RNAV5.

Another exemption applies to commercial operators who do not use PBN procedures if their aircraft are not fitted with PBN-compliant systems.

From 2020, all civil IRs must include PBN endorsement; this will be achieved through training and PBN testing during initial IR Skill Tests or revalidation proficiency checks.

It should be fairly simple to accommodate PBN training/testing for military IRs - it's hardly a big deal.
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 15:50
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The important point here is that there are no plan to switch to PBN as far as I know.

is the Typhoon PBN approved? It doesnít have a VOR, just TACAN with ILS and of course GPS and INS.
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 17:14
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Is the issue not the fact that Typhoon operates under a derogation from the ANO and so EASA and ICAO regs don't apply? It goes with the fact that (most) military pilots are unlicensed, so a PBN endorsement becomes irrelevant - you would expect a military pilot to hold an instrument rating but it will not be the same as the civilian version.
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 19:04
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Is this a storm in a teacup? I remember Military flying in the days of non-procedural ratings and flying airways / approaches without the aids!
However, I would be interested how our FJ mates get over these restrictions today? Outside Mil Ops / airspace, FL280 was a bit of a stopper for FJ.

OAP
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 00:01
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Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post
Is the issue not the fact that Typhoon operates under a derogation from the ANO and so EASA and ICAO regs don't apply? It goes with the fact that (most) military pilots are unlicensed, so a PBN endorsement becomes irrelevant - you would expect a military pilot to hold an instrument rating but it will not be the same as the civilian version.
the fact is that we operate in civilian airspace with civilian regs. An illustrative example would be that many airfields in France are removing aids from smaller airdromes because they are switching to GPS approaches. More over there are many places where xpdr S is mandatory (many FJ donít have it yet) and many places donít let you fly into RVSM even if you have stated in your Fplan that you are not RVSM and you are exempted. Do you imagine how big the difference is fuel wise?
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 06:55
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Originally Posted by Markos. View Post


the fact is that we operate in civilian airspace with civilian regs. An illustrative example would be that many airfields in France are removing aids from smaller airdromes because they are switching to GPS approaches. More over there are many places where xpdr S is mandatory (many FJ donít have it yet) and many places donít let you fly into RVSM even if you have stated in your Fplan that you are not RVSM and you are exempted. Do you imagine how big the difference is fuel wise?
Plus ADS-B,

Plus VDL Mode 2,

Plus TCAS 7.1....
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 07:05
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Originally Posted by Brain Potter View Post


Exempt from RVSM? How?
STS/STATE, I guess...
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 07:24
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With 2000 ft seperation required?
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 07:35
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Yes, or at least that was the case with the VC10 K and I canít see things have got any easier. It all depended on the ATC situation at the time.
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 08:03
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Originally Posted by Brain Potter View Post
With 2000 ft seperation required?
It's not guaranteed you'll get it, it depends on the traffic load, but the military GAT flights at that level is such a small percentage that usually the ATC can accommodate their request.
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 09:33
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Originally Posted by EUops View Post
It's not guaranteed you'll get it, it depends on the traffic load, but the military GAT flights at that level is such a small percentage that usually the ATC can accommodate their request.
it happened to me twice last month over France. On initial contact with the French ATC, the first question was: are you RVSM approved? Our answer was negative so they instructed Us to descend to FL280. We were cruising at FL400.....we arrived to AAR stretching our fuel.
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 09:35
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Originally Posted by EUops View Post
STS/STATE, I guess...
Iím afraid this doesnít work anymore for RVSM or RNAV exemptions. It does work for AFTM/slots.
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 09:52
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Originally Posted by Markos. View Post

it happened to me twice last month over France. On initial contact with the French ATC, the first question was: are you RVSM approved? Our answer was negative so they instructed Us to descend to FL280. We were cruising at FL400.....we arrived to AAR stretching our fuel.
It's been a while since the last time I requested, but when I did so, my answer was always "negative rvsm, state a/c". It always worked...
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