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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

Old 23rd Jul 2018, 07:47
  #101 (permalink)  
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The only reason Airbus/France/Germany would want to talk about UK participation is to kill a competing UK programme - whilst retaining their lead in airframe/engine/flight software etc. We’ve been down this path with Dassault too many times before.

Meanwhile......

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ighter-program

Saab CEO Says Warplane Maker Could Join U.K.-Led Fighter Program

Saab, maker of the Gripen warplane, said it’s interested in joining a U.K.-led project to develop a cutting-edge combat aircraft that would be a mainstay of defense programs in two decades time.

While Saab is also evaluating a rival Franco-German fighter plan, the Tempest program funded by Britain’s Ministry of Defence and including BAE Systems Plc and Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc has more appeal for the Swedish company, Chief Executive Officer Hakan Buskhe said Friday. “We’re much more intensive in discussion with the Brits than the other consortium,” Buskhe said in a phone briefing. “It looks very promising, and I think we jointly can do good things together.” BAE once held a 35 percent stake in Saab and the pair cooperated in a venture to help market the Gripen.

Britain unveiled a full-sized model of the new Tempest fighter at the Farnborough air show on Monday, pledging 2 billion pounds ($2.6 billion) of funding for a concept aircraft through 2025. Team Tempest also includes the U.K. arm of MBDA, Europe’s biggest missile company, and Leonardo SpA of Italy, a partner of BAE on the current Eurofighter program......

Leonardo said at the expo that it’s open to cooperating on other fighter programs but at the moment is in the British “camp.” Other candidates for joining Tempest include Japan and nations in Asia, where demand for warplanes is increasing as China and India flex their military muscle.

Buskhe said the focus elsewhere on developing a future combat plane might spur sales of the Gripen, given Saab’s commitment to building a further version of the plane, the Gripen E, which is scheduled for first delivery next year. The upgrade jet has won orders from Sweden and Brazil. “That gives us, the only ones building a new fighter, a big advantage,” he said. “We have something new, they have a plan to change something old to something new.”






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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 09:24
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Saab CEO Says Warplane Maker Could Join U.K.-Led Fighter Program
Could also read; Saab CEO Says Warplane Maker Could Join U.K. or French and German Fighter Programs

Farnborough 2018: Saab open to fighter partnership, if Gripen E tech included | Jane's 360


"We are talking to everyone at the moment, and we are open to working with everyone”

- Everyone is just hedging their bets at the moment.
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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 10:01
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"We’ve been down this path with Dassault too many times before "

Too damn true - all the way back to the G.91 .................
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 11:21
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Apparently it appeared inside the BAE (?) tent at RIAT ....unbeknown to a lot of us who attended. Am surprised a lot of RIAT volunteers, ATC staff etc were able to see this let alone keep schtum

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Old 25th Jul 2018, 12:18
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What's up with the European commitment to delta wings? The French, Germans, UK, Sweden keep churning out delta wing designs. Everybody else in the world (US, Russia, China, Japan, etc) seem to have gotten past the delta. Am I missing something?
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 12:48
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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
What's up with the European commitment to delta wings? The French, Germans, UK, Sweden keep churning out delta wing designs. Everybody else in the world (US, Russia, China, Japan, etc) seem to have gotten past the delta. Am I missing something?
I assume it's supposed to be representative of the concept (6th gen, domestic design/build) rather than an accurate depiction of the final configuration. It's easier to sound like you mean business if the journos have something concrete to look at...
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 13:10
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Have 'got past' the delta-wing, or just haven't mastered it yet?
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 14:08
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Originally Posted by melmothtw View Post
Have 'got past' the delta-wing, or just haven't mastered it yet?
This reminds me of the USAF general's quip regarding the Mirage 2000: "They've perfected the F-106."
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 14:12
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Originally Posted by pasta View Post
I assume it's supposed to be representative of the concept (6th gen, domestic design/build)....
Exactly my point. Why must a representative "domestic" European design have a delta wing? What is the fascination with deltas?
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 15:34
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...and just Google 'Boeing F/A-XX'. But you know, 'Europeans'.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 15:39
  #111 (permalink)  
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Ken, I asked a similar question previously, each decade all manufacturers have the same basic plan - delta, swing-wing, canard, twin tail, wedge tail etc. Europe, AFAIK, didn't adopt the twin tail after the Shackleton ☺.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 18:26
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Ummm, that Northrop link? It's a flying wing, NOT a delta. Neither is the Navy bird. (and for Melmot, neither is the Boeing bird).

As for the absurd notion that Europeans "don't know a lot about aircraft" that's bollocks. I'm not remotely suggesting that deltas are a bad idea or obsolete. I'm just asking why Europe is enamored with deltas. I'm assuming they have their reasons.
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 20:28
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Ken,

Fair call, although I suspect this has come out of an older design study.

Interesting regarding the Mirage2000. I thought when it came out it was ahead of it's time. Not in the use of a Delta though!
But in it's performance being optimised for the top right hand corner of the envelope. If it had had decent missiles and radar it could have owned the high ground!
Rather than fighting in an area to everyone else advantage (lower down and slower)!

I certainly found the 2 seat low level attack version an interesting choice.

I'm sure you would know but I always thought the F-18 was far to much the other way compared to the Mirage ( optimised for low and slow) - perfected the Sopwith camel for low speed handling you could argue!
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Old 25th Jul 2018, 21:12
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Most high performance fighters have some association with a delta wing.
‘The Lightning’ wing was a cutout delta, the twiddly bits mounted a bit further back. The Tornado similar with the wings swept; Typhoon put the control surfaces forward of the wing.
The future, use a delta platform with the controls outboard or ‘stealth’ embedded, Tempest ?

The Mirage dynasty has its roots in the FD2 delta.

Twin fins, but The Lightning MK6 had twin ventral fins !


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Old 26th Jul 2018, 07:03
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PEI, so did the Belfast . . .
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 15:24
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Originally Posted by typerated View Post
Interesting regarding the Mirage2000. I thought when it came out it was ahead of it's time. Not in the use of a Delta though!
But in it's performance being optimised for the top right hand corner of the envelope. If it had had decent missiles and radar it could have owned the high ground!
Rather than fighting in an area to everyone else advantage (lower down and slower)!
I'm sure you would know but I always thought the F-18 was far to much the other way compared to the Mirage ( optimised for low and slow) - perfected the Sopwith camel for low speed handling you could argue!
It all boils down to how you expect to fight. For decades the fighter mafia has insisted on extreme maneuverability and de-emphasized or outright poo-poo'd speed and altitude. Consider the F-35 saga. When it was "revealed" that the F-16 could out turn the F-35 you'd think the world was about to end. Personally, I'm not convinced excellent high AoA and turn performance are really the answer, but that's what the "experts" have insisted on for the past several decades.

Interestingly, many experts are now insisting that the "next generation fighter" will be a missileer carrying a large number of very long range missiles, except it will need to be stealthy and supercruise!
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Old 26th Jul 2018, 16:06
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Delta wings combine low supersonic drag, structural efficiency, internal fuel volume and space for semi-conformal and external stores. They're also resistant to stall and transonic wing drop.

The bad news is that high lift happens at high alpha with lots of drag, and you have less space for pitch and roll control. European engineers have mitigated these problems with double-deltas, canards and relaxed stability.

The US teen-series and the contemporary Russian fighters were designed with a heavy emphasis on transonic maneuver, before anyone was ready to attempt the degree of relaxed stability that's necessary to make a canard-delta do well in that regime. (Typhoon has been described as an airplane that would have natural pitch stability if you took the canard off.)

By the way, all the JSF designs were canard-deltas or deltas before the Navy got involved.
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 06:35
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https://hushkit.net/2018/07/30/proje...ghter-project/

Project Tempest: Musings on Britain’s new superfighter project

............”
There are rumours going around that many in the RAF and MoD do not want the full 138 F-35s on order. Insiders suggest a ‘silver bullet’ force akin to USAF’s 1990s F-117 force is being mooted in high places. Stealth is not required for all missions, and comes at a great cost (though the F-35’s situational awareness advantage isuseful for many missions). It is likely that fewer aircraft will be delivered and to protect the RAF’s independence some of these will be F-35As..........

.........”“It is not historical destiny which makes the British warlike, but particular political and military programmes of the recent past. So I would say that in the early twentieth century the United Kingdom was more warlike than myth suggested, much more so, but it is only in recent years that we have had a gleeful indulgence in military adventurism overseas. The United Kingdom did once have a major world role, now it just pretends to. It is now really a big Canada, but political leaders want to see themselves at the head of a small United States.” This bloated self-perception sometimes leads to Britain going it alone on military procurement programmes its smallish domestic market cannot justify. This can lead to a higher unit price, which leads to a lack of export success, which in turn keeps the unit price high.........
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 08:31
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Utter tosh.

A big Canada?

Totally ignores the UK influence and involvement in the world, soft power is so much more effective than mere military clout, and that comes from generations of involvement with virtually every country on the planet.
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Old 2nd Aug 2018, 08:45
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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This bloated self-perception sometimes leads to Britain going it alone on military procurement programmes its smallish domestic market cannot justify. This can lead to a higher unit price, which leads to a lack of export success, which in turn keeps the unit price high.........
Agree 100%. Indeed that was the subject of my major presentation at Staff College. Support for British industry is, of course, a factor ... and other factors come into play too. But think of overseas sales of the L85 rifle, the debacle of NimWACS and several other UK-only projects that cost us a fortune and gained no traction at all in overseas markets, when comparable items were available broadly off the shelf from other sources.
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