Military short of 800 pilots?
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UK is not far from full employment
The military are clearly not a govt priority
The chance of "failure" is high
Better to go into finance........ live in C London, great lifestyle, little discipline......
The military are clearly not a govt priority
The chance of "failure" is high
Better to go into finance........ live in C London, great lifestyle, little discipline......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GR, while it was not a benefit for which I joined, I think that was a pension of £401 pa at 38, 20 years hence. Once in of course it was unlimited chips with everything and the NS WRAF certainly had their share.
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Indeed.
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
they have tenants rights,
Given the correct tools to do the job,
are compensated for nights away,
have houses fit to live in,
can have a private life,
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
are not sent on bollocks courses,
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
can make decisions for themselves,
can provide their children a stable home life,
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Never be asked to take a life,
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
they have tenants rights,
Given the correct tools to do the job,
are compensated for nights away,
have houses fit to live in,
can have a private life,
can keep work and home life 100% separate,
have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
can plan their life more than a month in advance,
can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
are not sent on bollocks courses,
can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
can make decisions for themselves,
can provide their children a stable home life,
2 schools for their children’s entire education,
attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Never be asked to take a life,
and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ValM, now that I don't know, I just assumed, but now you mention it, probably not. I do know they liked chips though.
BV, I suspect that, in many parts of the UK, the salary:house price ratio is even worse than your figures indicate.
Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.
I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.
2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....
Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...
Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.
I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.
2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....
Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...
Last edited by BEagle; 20th Apr 2018 at 10:31.
BEagle
You’re right about house prices. Very base dependent. They’re not cheap anywhere though. 4.5 times your salary on a mortgage doesn’t get you much. And you need a decent deposit and cash for stamp duty (potentially).
I can only speak for the FJ world but I’ll say it before someone else pipes up. It’s not the airlines that are the big draw nowadays. It’s the sunnier climes and jobs flying FJs on tax free salaries that has got everyone talking.
Add in the perfect storm of pension changes, flying pay changes and jobs in the Middle East and I suspect your average FJ pilot of the future will complete two tours and then call it a day around about their 10 year point. A few years in the ME to get a pot of cash to replace the gratuity that was still ten years away, buy a house (or two) and then work on a second career and pension pot elsewhere. They could still only be in their 30’s.
It’s sad and I think it’s a real shame but I’m afraid it’s all of the MODs own doing.
For me it all started when 170 students were made redundant in 2011. It wasn’t just the students that learnt a valuable lesson. All QFIs and current frontline pilots also got the message loud and clear that loyalty had just become a one way street.
There are some (me included) who still feel the overall package is good enough to stay. Just as I mentioned to Sharpend that he needs to empathise with the younger generation, current PAS and senior officers also need to empathise though. The overall experience I’ve had, which financially doesn’t stack up against someone who served twenty years prior to myself, is still better than that on offer currently.
I don’t see a lack of ‘Queen and Country’ loyalty and guys still have the enthusiasm to do the job. They just live in a much harsher reality where the skills they possess as a military pilot present far more lucrative opportunities elsewhere.
As I said, many of us that were serving in 2011 were blinkered enough to think life was rosy until the cull. Those that have joined since were probably never even issued the rose tinted specs.
BV
I can only speak for the FJ world but I’ll say it before someone else pipes up. It’s not the airlines that are the big draw nowadays. It’s the sunnier climes and jobs flying FJs on tax free salaries that has got everyone talking.
Add in the perfect storm of pension changes, flying pay changes and jobs in the Middle East and I suspect your average FJ pilot of the future will complete two tours and then call it a day around about their 10 year point. A few years in the ME to get a pot of cash to replace the gratuity that was still ten years away, buy a house (or two) and then work on a second career and pension pot elsewhere. They could still only be in their 30’s.
It’s sad and I think it’s a real shame but I’m afraid it’s all of the MODs own doing.
For me it all started when 170 students were made redundant in 2011. It wasn’t just the students that learnt a valuable lesson. All QFIs and current frontline pilots also got the message loud and clear that loyalty had just become a one way street.
There are some (me included) who still feel the overall package is good enough to stay. Just as I mentioned to Sharpend that he needs to empathise with the younger generation, current PAS and senior officers also need to empathise though. The overall experience I’ve had, which financially doesn’t stack up against someone who served twenty years prior to myself, is still better than that on offer currently.
I don’t see a lack of ‘Queen and Country’ loyalty and guys still have the enthusiasm to do the job. They just live in a much harsher reality where the skills they possess as a military pilot present far more lucrative opportunities elsewhere.
As I said, many of us that were serving in 2011 were blinkered enough to think life was rosy until the cull. Those that have joined since were probably never even issued the rose tinted specs.
BV
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I don’t see a lack of ‘Queen and Country’ loyalty and guys still have the enthusiasm to do the job. They just live in a much harsher reality where the skills they possess as a military pilot present far more lucrative opportunities elsewhere.
Having recognised the differences did they make appropriate adjustments? I think the executive streaming was one attempt but I don't think the non-executive stream got the stability they sought.
BV, I suspect that, in many parts of the UK, the salary:house price ratio is even worse than your figures indicate.
Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.
I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.
2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....
Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...
Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.
I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.
2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....
Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...
Airline salaries aren’t that bad though!
200k for a long haul BA captain, 100k for a Thomson FO. ( both flying shiny new 787s) So where can you make that sort of salary in the RAF ? ( unless , of course, you get to the very top flying a mahogany bomber at MOD ,)
Maybe the RAF should go back to the old short service commissions. Not the 5/8/12 of the old DC (B) but a fixed term of say twelve years. They would have to get their training organised to get productive service out of them but they would know that they will have been taught to fly modern equipment which would ease there way into civilian life at a certain point.
As they are not going to be VSIs there is not lot of point of them spending a long time at Cranditz so you can go back to the old short ITS course. Get the flying training out of the way in two years or so then on a twelve year stint you will have them up front for about nine years. You will not have wasted training by them doing staff courses or administrative posts so their flying will repay the investment.
It is a kind of 'Specialist Aircrew' from signing up. You could also dispense with all the requirements for university education as there seem to be enough military pilots around the world flying very complicated bits of kit without that benefit.
A young, fit, naturally gifted pilot joining at eighteen knowing that he/she should be pat for an airline job at thirty.
We've been there before.
As they are not going to be VSIs there is not lot of point of them spending a long time at Cranditz so you can go back to the old short ITS course. Get the flying training out of the way in two years or so then on a twelve year stint you will have them up front for about nine years. You will not have wasted training by them doing staff courses or administrative posts so their flying will repay the investment.
It is a kind of 'Specialist Aircrew' from signing up. You could also dispense with all the requirements for university education as there seem to be enough military pilots around the world flying very complicated bits of kit without that benefit.
A young, fit, naturally gifted pilot joining at eighteen knowing that he/she should be pat for an airline job at thirty.
We've been there before.
I think fareastdriver’s idea is probably the right one in the situation we now find ourselves. But...
This is only because we are so far down the road of civilianisation and ‘FTRSisation’ of so much of the second- and third-line, both air and ground trades, starting with depth maintenance and now encompassing QFIs in the flying training system and Voyager crews at Brize. Even tactics development jobs at the AWC and requirements jobs at Abbey Wood are being contracted out be done by the host of QWIs working for Inzpire. No doubt it’s great for the bottom line in the short and medium term, but the long term effect is that the remaining regulars get utterly thrashed in a succession of front-line tours and leave after getting cheesed off with all the time away. This is what has been hurting the USAF and it is almost certainly a significant factor in the problem highlighted by the NAO. Eventually this model will come crashing down around us, as future leavers will not have had any of the wider experience that makes the previous generation capable of filling these contractorised roles without additional training.
Trouble is, one of the NAO’s recommendations is to do more of this civilianisation thing...
This is only because we are so far down the road of civilianisation and ‘FTRSisation’ of so much of the second- and third-line, both air and ground trades, starting with depth maintenance and now encompassing QFIs in the flying training system and Voyager crews at Brize. Even tactics development jobs at the AWC and requirements jobs at Abbey Wood are being contracted out be done by the host of QWIs working for Inzpire. No doubt it’s great for the bottom line in the short and medium term, but the long term effect is that the remaining regulars get utterly thrashed in a succession of front-line tours and leave after getting cheesed off with all the time away. This is what has been hurting the USAF and it is almost certainly a significant factor in the problem highlighted by the NAO. Eventually this model will come crashing down around us, as future leavers will not have had any of the wider experience that makes the previous generation capable of filling these contractorised roles without additional training.
Trouble is, one of the NAO’s recommendations is to do more of this civilianisation thing...
Fareastdriver, Looks good to me.
I left school at 15 Got an engineering apprenticeship (TF!) 3yrs MN in hot noisy engine rooms (except around Helsinki in Winter when it was comfy) and, thanks to the inability of JFK & Kruschev to play nicely together, was accepted for RAF pilot training. How lucky was that?
I still raise a glass to those two.
You do not need a huge education to be a pilot, either mil or civ.
If you're going on to VSO then that's different.
I left school at 15 Got an engineering apprenticeship (TF!) 3yrs MN in hot noisy engine rooms (except around Helsinki in Winter when it was comfy) and, thanks to the inability of JFK & Kruschev to play nicely together, was accepted for RAF pilot training. How lucky was that?
I still raise a glass to those two.
You do not need a huge education to be a pilot, either mil or civ.
If you're going on to VSO then that's different.
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One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
WD, and you forgot to mention that Mrs Fg Off could not mix with Mrs Sqn Ldr.
It at a nearby stn wives were required to attend a practice Royal lunch, but not the main event.
Or do you remember one period, about two weeks of intense activity, when Chris Booth said he had to go shopping that evening as they had run out of bread. He was quickly informed that we were all running out of food as our cars were on base and most wives had no wheels.
It at a nearby stn wives were required to attend a practice Royal lunch, but not the main event.
Or do you remember one period, about two weeks of intense activity, when Chris Booth said he had to go shopping that evening as they had run out of bread. He was quickly informed that we were all running out of food as our cars were on base and most wives had no wheels.
At our so-called meet-and-greet at the Bucc OCU, where we were totally ignored by the staff, a snooty woman asked the wife of one of our number "...and which course are you on?".
Mistake...BIG mistake. She'd asked a rather fiery red-headed Scots lass, who explained in words of half a syllable that SHE wasn't on any course, but her husband was starting his Buccaneer navigator course!
Mistake...BIG mistake. She'd asked a rather fiery red-headed Scots lass, who explained in words of half a syllable that SHE wasn't on any course, but her husband was starting his Buccaneer navigator course!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FED, really? Of course many wives were ex-teachers or nurses and in the 60s nurses and marriage didn't go together and I guess teaching posts were scarce, especially one requiring a car. Similarly WRAF had to retire so they took may have become unemployed.
Yes, on reflection you may well have been right with 'wives of' being marooned on the patch or caravan site. Remember the good old days on no quarter for officers under 25, quarters, frozen and unfrozen lists, points etc and no quarter for dets under 6 months. I was lucky, my poster juggled my courses and postings to give me 6 months and my overseas tour as a batchelor gave me the requisite points. Yes, things were better in those days
Yes, on reflection you may well have been right with 'wives of' being marooned on the patch or caravan site. Remember the good old days on no quarter for officers under 25, quarters, frozen and unfrozen lists, points etc and no quarter for dets under 6 months. I was lucky, my poster juggled my courses and postings to give me 6 months and my overseas tour as a batchelor gave me the requisite points. Yes, things were better in those days
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200k for a long haul BA captain, 100k for a Thomson FO. ( both flying shiny new 787s) So where can you make that sort of salary in the RAF ? ( unless , of course, you get to the very top flying a mahogany bomber at MOD ,)
Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%.
The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you.
So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me:
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A
As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other.
CPL Clott
I recall chatting to a chum of mine who'd left the RAF and was then a Virgin FO on the 747. He was moaning that he wasn't entitled to a free parking pass at both Heathrow and Gatwick, only one or the other....and either had to leave his car and take the company bus or pay to park at the 'other' airport. Such hardship, he claimed...
"So when did you last do weekend SDO?", I asked him.
"So when did you last do weekend SDO?", I asked him.
