Civilians and RAF Brevets
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Here we go again. At 1 BFTS Terrell Texas when I was on 18/19 Course from October1943 to June 1944 the majority of our instructors were civilians. They held honorary commissions so were saluted and called Sir. Our CO was a RAFWing Commander Pilot. He had an assistant CFI, a flight lieutenant, an RAF gunnery officer, an RAF navigation officer all pilots. The Primary CFI was Mr Roderick. He was an honorary wing commander.The chief flying instructor, also honorary Wing Commander was Mr Van Lloyd. They were saluted and called Sir. No problem! They woreUSArmy shirts and trousers. On their hats were facsimile RAF wings but without the crown and with BFTS as badge. They were all very experienced pilots and excellent instructors, and all standardised to RAF training requirement staff.
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Ormeside (#61),
Your Mr Rodreick still has me puzzled. 1943 was long after my time, would've thought that by then the BFTS would be staffed with all RAF Officer (and SNCO ?) instructors: they were effectively RAF Units operating on American soil. Not so, it now appears.
All instructors (in my time) were addressed as "Sir" (whether civilian or of lower rank than the pupil).
Mr Rodreick had. you say, an Honorary Commission. In which Service ? On his collar he has what might be (hard to see with my old eyes) the silver oak leaf of a USAAC Lieut-Colonel. The three bars on the shoulder may be intended to be a representation of Wing Commander rank braid - but why ? Plenty of real braid avaiable. These look like airline First Officer slides. On his shirt he has what looks very like a RAF Pilot's brevet. Can't be sure about the thing on his cap.
Either way, he would be entitled to wear the uniform (inc cap) of his honorary rank (we have a lady [TC-T] who has appeared here [on "Private Flying" Forum] in full rig as a Lieut-Commander RNR (hon), as she is quite entitled to do). He had no need to appear in this get-up - if he were an honorary Wing Commander, he would be entitled to wear the uniform, surely ?
Changing the subject: what would be the average "wash-out" rate in the BFTS in your day, Ormeside ?
Cheers, Danny.
Your Mr Rodreick still has me puzzled. 1943 was long after my time, would've thought that by then the BFTS would be staffed with all RAF Officer (and SNCO ?) instructors: they were effectively RAF Units operating on American soil. Not so, it now appears.
All instructors (in my time) were addressed as "Sir" (whether civilian or of lower rank than the pupil).
Mr Rodreick had. you say, an Honorary Commission. In which Service ? On his collar he has what might be (hard to see with my old eyes) the silver oak leaf of a USAAC Lieut-Colonel. The three bars on the shoulder may be intended to be a representation of Wing Commander rank braid - but why ? Plenty of real braid avaiable. These look like airline First Officer slides. On his shirt he has what looks very like a RAF Pilot's brevet. Can't be sure about the thing on his cap.
Either way, he would be entitled to wear the uniform (inc cap) of his honorary rank (we have a lady [TC-T] who has appeared here [on "Private Flying" Forum] in full rig as a Lieut-Commander RNR (hon), as she is quite entitled to do). He had no need to appear in this get-up - if he were an honorary Wing Commander, he would be entitled to wear the uniform, surely ?
Changing the subject: what would be the average "wash-out" rate in the BFTS in your day, Ormeside ?
Cheers, Danny.
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Danny. All our flying instructors were civilians. The RAF staff, gunnery officer, navigation officer, PTIs, CO And Sqn Lhr Admin all lived off base. There was never a problem with ranks with the civilian instructors. No ex pupils came back as instructors. There was a U S Flight surgeon and staff and US Air Force detachment for aircraft maintenance and for looking after the American cadets. I think that maybe 25 per cent were eliminated from the courses.
Surely the Air Force List would sort ut these "Hons"?
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It is truly remarkable that two WWII pilots, both of whom trained in the USA, and whom between them have clocked up nearly 190 years, are not only able to recall their training in the USA some 75 years ago, but are able to share it here on this thread.
Notwithstanding the fascinating insights into World War II training practices, I would just like to make the point that this thread does not concern the 'award' of the RAF Flying Badge to civil pilots upon completion of a training course.
Instead it refers to the alleged attempt being made by some civilian contractor to circumvent the regulatory requirements for civil instructors, who are NOT members of HM forces, by handing them the RAF Flying Badge - as though that trumps all other requirements - so that the contractor can take advantage of an Air Navigation Order article which ONLY refers to members of HM forces. This is so that they can avoid having to pay for the issue and maintenance of the relevant civil ratings.
Could we stick to the scope of that topic, please?
Instead it refers to the alleged attempt being made by some civilian contractor to circumvent the regulatory requirements for civil instructors, who are NOT members of HM forces, by handing them the RAF Flying Badge - as though that trumps all other requirements - so that the contractor can take advantage of an Air Navigation Order article which ONLY refers to members of HM forces. This is so that they can avoid having to pay for the issue and maintenance of the relevant civil ratings.
Could we stick to the scope of that topic, please?
Er,
BEagle,
Where do these contractors get hold of the RAF Flying Badge to hand out in the first place?
BEagle,
Where do these contractors get hold of the RAF Flying Badge to hand out in the first place?
Err, Tovarich pr00ne, perhaps here: https://www.rafmuseumshop.com/raf-pi...oth-badge.html ?
Or perhaps eBay - they'll do anything to cut costs...
Or perhaps eBay - they'll do anything to cut costs...
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Jan 2018 at 21:22.
so that they can avoid having to pay for the issue and maintenance of the relevant civil ratings.
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For those who thought my narrative on the speed of moving from cadet to QFI was wide of the mark.
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...an-glover.aspx
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...an-glover.aspx
Err, Tovarich pr00ne, perhaps here: https://www.rafmuseumshop.com/raf-pi...oth-badge.html ?
Or perhaps eBay - they'll do anything to cut costs...
Or perhaps eBay - they'll do anything to cut costs...
Wander00, these days virtually no airlines are prepared to pay to train their novice pilots. Even if they do, this usually means that the pilot will have to repay the cost of obtaining the Type Rating by being bonded and on a lower pay scale in his/her first few years with the airline.
However, the likes of Ryanair require pilots to pay for their own Type Ratings before they apply for a job.....
I don't know whether they also have to pay for their own TR revalidations in the flight simulator as well, but it wouldn't surpise me.
Gone are the days of Hamble and Prestwick and their high quality in-house training for those selected for the airline...
Yes, it's an utter scandal, resulting from the policies of LoCo airlines.
However, the likes of Ryanair require pilots to pay for their own Type Ratings before they apply for a job.....
I don't know whether they also have to pay for their own TR revalidations in the flight simulator as well, but it wouldn't surpise me.
Gone are the days of Hamble and Prestwick and their high quality in-house training for those selected for the airline...
Yes, it's an utter scandal, resulting from the policies of LoCo airlines.
Ryanair and most loco training is very good indeed and in many respects more acute than the isolated, almost incestuous, BA system.
It's just a matter of who pays.
It's just a matter of who pays.
beardy, I certainly agree about Ryanair training standards. High quality and they equip their pilots well for the secondary airports they are often obliged to use.
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Ormeside (#63),
Thanks - as many as that ? But still better than the 40% carnage in the Arnold Scheme ! How did the US "Kay-Dets" mix in with your LACs (did they try any "hazing" on each other - or on you?), and were their "scrub" rates better or worse than ours ? Were you all doing a 200 hour Course then, and if so what did the Americans think of the obvious fact: that their own Basic Schools were clearly both wasteful and unnecessary ?
Did they regard their BFTS trained pilots as in any way inferior to their own three-stagers ? (Our OTUs could see no difference at all). Your:.."No ex pupils came back as instructors".. ? The Arnold Scheme took in 7,000 plus LACs, we got about 4,500 pilots back plus 550 or so (all Commisssioned), kept on for a further twelve months out there as "creamed off" Instructors. So whom did they instruct ? One at least turned up at Craig Field (Arnold Advanced) when I was there, but the story was that they were intended to replace the civilians in the BFTS (which makes sense).
As for your civilian Instructors: either they should have remained in mufti, or if deemed necessary (ie a RAF requirement - why?) given appropriate RAF honorary Commissions and put in proper uniform - not in these "Fred Karno" outfits (IMHO).
"Curiouser and Curiouser", said Alice.
Cheers, Danny.
Thanks - as many as that ? But still better than the 40% carnage in the Arnold Scheme ! How did the US "Kay-Dets" mix in with your LACs (did they try any "hazing" on each other - or on you?), and were their "scrub" rates better or worse than ours ? Were you all doing a 200 hour Course then, and if so what did the Americans think of the obvious fact: that their own Basic Schools were clearly both wasteful and unnecessary ?
Did they regard their BFTS trained pilots as in any way inferior to their own three-stagers ? (Our OTUs could see no difference at all). Your:.."No ex pupils came back as instructors".. ? The Arnold Scheme took in 7,000 plus LACs, we got about 4,500 pilots back plus 550 or so (all Commisssioned), kept on for a further twelve months out there as "creamed off" Instructors. So whom did they instruct ? One at least turned up at Craig Field (Arnold Advanced) when I was there, but the story was that they were intended to replace the civilians in the BFTS (which makes sense).
As for your civilian Instructors: either they should have remained in mufti, or if deemed necessary (ie a RAF requirement - why?) given appropriate RAF honorary Commissions and put in proper uniform - not in these "Fred Karno" outfits (IMHO).
"Curiouser and Curiouser", said Alice.
Cheers, Danny.
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Its not the handing out of a physical brevet. Squadron badges include whatever brevet. Its the concept of signing of a civilian pilot with a QCT on type with basically a logbook signature and stating that they can fly the type because they have done a QCT and that grants them a brevet so they meet the requirements of RA2101........
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Danny.. we had 20 per cent of our courses American Aviation Cadets. We all happily mixed in together. After a very short time we had the Americans calling each other by their Christian names and swinging their arms! We all got on fine, they regaled us with horror stories of hazing and eating square meals. Nothing like that happened at Terrell. Apart from the constant threat of elimination on the whole my time at Terrell was most enjoyable. Certainly our instructors were the tops and we certainly earned our wings. Missing out basic on the Vultee didn’t seem to matter and we did get 150 hours on the Harvard. We were also very lucky in having such great rapport with the locals in Terrell which continued, in my case, for many years.