Civilians and RAF Brevets
 

Civilians being given RAF Brevet in order to fly military aircraft. discuss.......

What's the context? VGS? Not sure what we're supposed to discuss in all honesty.

I and many others worked incredibly hard over many years within the RAF to earn mine. Why should civilian be given RAF wings, surely they should wear wings appropriate to their own training. Did not the ATS in WW2 wear different wings?

Not VGS, there’s always been a separate badge for that. Not AEF, there’s a separate (rocking horse doodoo) badge for that.

So who are the civilians and what aircraft are they flying with mil wings?

Think you mean ATA......

If so, yes, the ATA had their own wings, but uniform was also slightly different in other ways as well.

As Civilian Gliding Instructor on a VGS I qualified to wear the RAF Senior Gliding Instructor Badge. So yes some civilians can and did wear an RAF Brevet, probably just not the one the bose-x was thinking about.

Are we talking AirTanker here? Or MFTS?

Civilians don't need a brevet in order to fly a UK military registered aircraft. RA 2101(1) para 2.d only requires a minimum of:




He possesses ►an appropriate◄ civil licence or is in possession of, or has previously been awarded, a foreign military qualification that has been approved as equivalent by the Aviation Duty Holder or AM(MF).

Dinosaur alert:

But I'm with sharpend on this.

Many years ago, when the RAF jealously guarded its own standards and traditions, there was a "senior responsible owner" (to use modern parlance) that set the rules for flying badges. I think it was (maybe still is) laid down in Queen's Regs. For some reason a civilian company wanted their aircrew to be given RAF flying badges without having done (IIRC) the "requisite courses of RAF flying training" for which the award of a flying badge was necessary. Unfortunately, the SROs post was disestablished in one of the many (never-ending?) reorgs and subsequent SROs (if such a thing exists) obviously haven't been as protective of standards/tradition and we seem to have decided that the flying badges are no longer hard-won, prestigious badges and we will give them to any Tom, Dick or Harry. I for one, cannot see what is wrong with civilian instructors or civilian-employed sponsored reserves wearing the "wings" of their parent company. Only those who have obtained their flying badges through completion of military flying training, be that RAF, FAA or AAC, should wear military wings.

This appears to be an attempt by one of the snake-oil contractors to circumvent Part-FCL requirements. They think that, by giving civil flight instructors the RAF Flying Badge, they can take advantage of the Air Navigation Order applying to the flying of civil registered aircraft by members of the Armed Forces in the course of their duties.

However, a civil pilot must hold an appropriate pilot licence to fly for the contractor. This means a Part-FCL pilot licence, valid Part-MED medical for the privileges to be exercised and a Part-FCL Type or Class Rating for the aircraft on which the privileges will be exercised.

Giving the RAF Flying Badge to a 'plain vanilla' civil pilot (i.e. one who is not a Sponsored Reservist or other reservist) very clearly does NOT entitle the pilot to the exemption of the Air Navigation Order 2016:

Another legal requirement which has probably gone unnoticed is that, from 8th April 2018, if a civil pilot flies aerobatics in an EASA aeroplane (e.g. Grob 120TP), he/she will also need a Part-FCL Aerobatic Rating.

And if an aeroplane is being flown out of sight of the surface below 3000ft amsl, the pilot is technically not maintaining VMC, thanks to Part-SERA, so will be under IFR....for which FCL.600 requires an Instrument Rating.

It was much easier in my dad's day.

After one's name was drawn out of the hat, one travelled from Liverpool on a liner across the Atlantic to Canada. There one was offered a choice of half a dozen holiday camps in the USA -- in his case he had watched lots of cowboy movies and thought one in Texas would be fun.

The stay at the holiday camps was to be for some 6 months during which one was to be pampered and fed on prime steak with all the trimmings..

Unlike Disneyland there were not going to be roller coaster rides. but that was not a problem because as an added treat, one was to be taught how to fly bi-planes, and if one did't make a horlicks of that, monoplanes, by civilian pilots who had mainly learnt their skill crop spraying. If one was lucky one would fly to the instructors ranch for home cooked lunch and admire his gun collection.

At the end of the six months, if one had attended all the Church Parades and not made unwelcome passes at the female instructors, one was to be commissioned and given a brevit.

Then the whole process reversed. One would travel back to Canada and from there back to Liverpool on the voyage, as a newly commissioned pilot, one was to be invited to dine with the Captain.

Once back in the Uk, if one had looked at one or two of the holiday camp library books, especially the ones with pictures of aeroplanes, one was to be posted to be trained as a flying instructor, the reasoning being that newly minted pilots and especially those with an acquired transatlantic accent were better at teaching others, than battle fatigued British pilots.

..and for a lot of them there career was noted by its brevity.

A slight point of order - a “Brevet” is either a paper certificate or an acting rank.

The correct term is a FLYING BADGE!

There is a very good book on the subject by Wg Cdr (Retd) “Jeff” Jefford; extracts of which appear in the RAF Historical Society Journals:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhi...tyjournals.cfm

Page 103 of the following is what you need to know:
https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediaf...917797C407.pdf

PS. Authority to wear or issue a Flying Badge is in QRs. Currently the sponsor is Asst Director Flying Training (ADFT) although this will soon sit under the RAF Flying Branch & Trade Advisors (Branch Sponsors for the older amongst you). They work directly for the Head of the Flying Branch who is a highly respected 2-star Chinook pilot. :-)

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And FC Brevet is an Italian Football Team.

A slightly bigger point of order:

Would imply that the naval and air forces aren't military!

It also states the authority for award and wearing of such badges. I would be surprised if civilian pilots were to be allowed to wear such. However, “civilian qualified” pilots serving in the military have been authorised to wear Flying Badges. In the earliest days of the RFC the Royal Aero Club FAI Certificate was the qualification standard for the award of such a badge. As we know Sponsored Reservists have been awarded RAF Flying Badges who hold ATPLs and an A330 type rating. Even Sir Winston Churchill was awarded his Flying Badge as he gained his RAeC “ticket” whilst serving in the British Army prior to WWI.

On the RAF Museum website it says about Churchill
However, to award a military Flying Badge to civilians who are not in the military and thus do not wear HM Forces’ uniform should not happen...:=

QR206 lists the Flying Badges in issue and the ones that are obsolete. The Air Cadet staffs’ Glider Pilot and Gliding Instructor badges are not listed, so I guess as they are not mentioned in QRs then they are not de facto aircrew Flying Badges??

QUOTE:

A slight point of order - a “Brevet” is either a paper certificate or an acting rank.

I beg to differ.Brevet rank is or was advancement by rank for extra-regimental purposes.

As an example, a Captain granted a brevet of Major was a Captain within regimental duties, but a Major when, for example, serving on a Court Martial, or commanding a mixed force where all the officers were captains or subalterns.

LB - I believe you are correct in comparison to my clumsy definition. But one thing it certainly isn’t is a Flying Badge! :ok: