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European Army

Old 13th Jul 2018, 15:33
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rockie_Rapier View Post
So, according to President Trump NATO is costing the USA too much and Europe needs to start pulling its weight.

Can he really be advocating a EU army?
Sounds like it............... he's no fan of ANY international Body as far as I can see
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 18:14
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO, "The Donald" is like a "tough guy" (using the ice hockey slang), but his field is business and economics, and the political issues should be projected on that plain (or vice versa). It is crystal clear that pressing the Europeans to raise their military budgets means that at least half of this increase would land in the hands of US companies producing weapons. As far as mil. aviation is concerned, there are no European competitors to F-35 and SAMs like PAC-3, THAAD, AeGIS. I assume that with other forces the US would benefit as well.

Even considering that NordStream-2 gas project, for Trumps it's a competition and all means are OK to achieve the goal. Supress the Russian tube and bargain instead his liquid stuff. I assume that his position in talks with Putin will be clear and simple: "Nothing personal, Vlad, it's just business. If you have a stick to scare those guys, you may use it as well, but you don't have any, while I do have "

Last edited by A_Van; 13th Jul 2018 at 18:29.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 05:32
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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The last example of a synthetic nation made up of wildly different elements and dominated by one group was Yugoslavia, and we know what happened when that went bang. And there is the rub, the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.

The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.

However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.

Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.

The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 07:29
  #64 (permalink)  
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MGD followed Yugoslavia by a couple of years and then Malaysia in 1964 and that soon split. But your premise holds.

BTW, welcome back t o the pack 😁
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 10:05
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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"Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory "

How many 104 year olds are there on here????
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 11:36
  #66 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
"Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory "

How many 104 year olds are there on here????
Who said on PPRuNe.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 11:53
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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mgd:-
the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.
Hammer, nail, head! A European Army (Surely that should read a EU Army?) will be concerned with defending the European Union, not from without but from within. That could range from Internal Security to full outright Civil War. Neither will be pretty as you say. In the former they kick in your door at 0300 hrs, in the latter there will be a mass blood bath, and all because of some bright idea to avoid future European Wars. Oh, the irony!
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 12:25
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Don't necessarily disagree with your point however...

will be concerned with defending the European Union, not from without but from within.
...that pretty much applies to most armies that have ever existed.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 12:32
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed, but it particularly applies to Union Armies wherein separate states with their own politics and heritage are herded together into a super state. It needs all the resources of the centre to keep them together, but notably it ofttimes fails dramatically.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 19:00
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat View Post
However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.
There's an interesting website (which I'm not able to post the link to) which ranks countries according to defense spending. Just google wiki list of countries by military expenditure.
This claims that the UK's military spend is 47.2 billion in USD terms and that this corresponds to 1.8% of UK GDP.

On the other hand Russia spends 66.3 billion in USD terms which, out of its smaller GDP is 4.3%.

A pat on the back then to Ivan. Perhaps Trump will invite Russia to join NATO

Last edited by Rockie_Rapier; 15th Jul 2018 at 17:54.
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 12:06
  #71 (permalink)  
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German Foreign Office: MoreFM @HeikoMaas:

"We are in the process of transforming the EU into a genuine security and defence union. We remain convinced that we need more and not less Europe."


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Old 17th Aug 2018, 15:26
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like the formation of the USA..............

So who gets to play Ol 'Abe and who is going to be Jeff. Davis???
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 08:45
  #73 (permalink)  
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https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-f...e-fund-russia/

EU, founded as project of peace, plans military future

The mood in the European Union on military affairs is undergoing a seismic shift. Policymakers across the Continent finally agree that hard power — long viewed as antithetical to the EU’s raison d’être — is now essential to the bloc’s survival. The question is how, or sometimes if, the EU’s militaries should work together.........

....in Brussels, the Commission has proposed a €13 billion European Defense Fund for the bloc’s next long-term budget, in part to expand a list of 17 joint defense initiatives approved in December by the European Council under what is known as Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO). The European Parliament has even called for creating a directorate general for defense in the Commission.

Advocates of military cooperation say no less than the EU’s survival is at stake. “Only together, we are strong,” Michael Gahler, a German member of the European Parliament, said in July after the approval of a €500 million fund for research and development of defense industrial products. “Only united will Europeans face the challenges that emanate from Russia, disintegrating states in the neighborhood and, unfortunately, the currently incalculable U.S. foreign and security policy.”.....

The European Council in March approved an initial list of projects, including the creation of a European Medical Command, development of cyber rapid-response teams, and construction of an armored infantry fighting vehicle, to be built by Italy, Greece and Slovakia. Diplomats said only two projects — the cyber initiative led by Lithuania and a Dutch-led initiative on military mobility — have made concrete progress so far. But already defense ministers are looking at a further 33 projects put forward by member countries in recent months. They plan to draw up a shortlist for approval by December.

The Commission also allocated €500 million in 2019-20 for defense industrial research projects, which one European NATO official said would help reduce reliance on Washington. “Currently it’s all based on U.S. and U.K. technology,” the official said. “Once this will be done, EU member states will be in the position to choose between U.S. and EU products.”

While these initial steps may seem small, experts say they represent a revolutionary shift after decades of inaction.

“The European Commission has found its way into the European security and defense sector,” Chantal Lavallée, an expert at the Institute for European Studies, wrote in a recent paper for the Real Instituto Elcano in Spain. “To the surprise and skepticism of many, given that this sector has long been considered a domaine réservé of the member states, ambitious Commission initiatives have come to fruition.”........


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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:00
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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What do we care? We're leaving, it's none of our business now. That said, it does make sense in view of the US's increased questioning of NATO's raisin d'etre. Who knows, when Putin pops his clogs maybe they might eventually ask Russia to join....
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:26
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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The last example of a synthetic nation made up of wildly different elements and dominated by one group was Yugoslavia, and we know what happened when that went bang. And there is the rub, the European Union, in its drive to form a United States of Europe, will slowly pull itself apart, and when it does, history suggests it won't be pretty.

The EU is currently drinking its own Kool Aid, but at some point, will have to face up to the fact that it's model of repeated compromises across 27 members doesn't equate to a coherent command and control in a time of crisis.

However, whilst this process follows its predictable route to failure, those nations spending >2% on defence are expected to subsidise the defence of the others, including the EU's wealthiest member, Germany, which has allowed its defence capability to descend into a shocking farce.

Another example is Belgium, which having been invaded twice in living memory, spends half the recommended NATO level on defence, whilst relying on the contribution of forces from The US, UK and others in a time of need.

The 'Donald' is spot on, and the Europeans, with their contemporary outrage at his directness, have read this one very badly. It's not Trump putting NATO at risk, its European intransigence.
Of course, one example of a "synthetic nation made up of wildly different elements and dominated by one group" that you omit to mention is the UK. We may yet get to see what happens when that "goes bang".
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:27
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Heiko Maas (German Foreign Minister):-
We remain convinced that we need more and not less Europe at this time.
Sounds familiar...
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:50
  #77 (permalink)  
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construction of an armored infantry fighting vehicle, to be built by Italy, Greece and Slovakia. Diplomats said only two projects — the cyber initiative led by Lithuania and a Dutch-led initiative on military mobility
Do I smell pork cooking?
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 09:52
  #78 (permalink)  
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Michael Gahler, a German . . . “Only united will Europeans face the challenges that emanate from Russia, disintegrating states in the neighborhood and, unfortunately, the currently incalculable U.S. foreign and security policy.”.
1914 any one?
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 20:37
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Pontius, I'd say it's more 1871 or 800 AD. I don't want to Godwin the thread with my third estimate.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 08:26
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf, you may well say that but the Godwin estimate seems to me the most appropriate of your three from this side of the pond. Right now the UK is split between those who feel that enough is enough and we need once more to confront our own national security, and those who suggest that we should stay close to nurse for fear of finding something worse. The formation of an EU army merely dots the i's in that regard. Those who forget the past and all that...
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