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European Army

Old 11th Dec 2017, 07:35
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European Army

Not sure what so offended anyone that the previous thread was closed. However the process marches on, see below. I have added a separate link at the end to the list. Items 19 and 20 put a very large question mark over Anglo-French military programmes and seem sto eliminate any possibility of UK participation in and future aircraft programme.

Interesting that Ireland has signed up as well, always having refused to join NATO.

EU to unveil military pact projects

Notification on Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO)

Last edited by ORAC; 11th Dec 2017 at 11:27.
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 07:52
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Not sure what so offended anyone that the previous thread was closed.
Has nothing to do with Military Aviation, most likely.
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 07:58
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Simplifying and standardizing cross border military transport in Europe for
enabling rapid deployment of military materiel and personnel.
I watched a video recently that featured an American commander saying that it took far too long to move troops around in NATO and that the Russians didn't have this problem in their side of the border. So could this be a step in the right direction?
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 08:15
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Jointery in military aviation has and is occurring. eg. NATO E-3 AWACS, New tanker A330-MRTT and C-17 airlift etc..
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 11:30
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As I said, it is points 19 and 20 which seem to eliminate the UK participating in future European projects...

“19. Ensure that all projects with regard to capabilities led by participating Member States make the European defence industry more competitive via an appropriate industrial policy which avoids unnecessary overlap.

20. Ensure that the cooperation programmes - which must only benefit entities which demonstrably provide added value on EU territory - and the acquisition strategies adopted by the participating Member States will have a positive impact on the EDTIB.”
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 13:24
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As ever it will go with the size of orders - European aircraft manufacturers would cut in N Korea if they offered to buy 100 units of a new frontline aircraft
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 17:23
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Originally Posted by Mil-26Man View Post
Has nothing to do with Military Aviation, most likely.
Mind you I'm sure any reference a European Army includes such things as a European Navy and a European Air Force.

FB
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 18:00
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Originally Posted by Mil-26Man View Post
Has nothing to do with Military Aviation, most likely.
Based on the text in the article, it most likely does involve aviation since all of the EU and NATO have taken the Joint Forces approach in one form or another.
French President Emmanuel Macron took a major step toward his grand plan of a European military intervention force.
An intervention force will tend to be air-land by default, and air-land-sea depending upon the location of the intervention.


Perhaps the harder question is the following: in what language will the ground element commander call for close air support from a section of tactical aircraft arriving on a given day? The details will be worked out, or not, as this proposal goes from concept to implementation.

(Not "as a mod," just happened to see this while checking in).
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 06:37
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T28B,


Have you heard of things like C-BML, MSDL and likes?
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 13:17
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If one takes the bus out to Zaventem airport, the bus stops at a large development where large numbers of military officers badly disguised as civilians alight. With the introduction of a European Army, will this establishment become redundant and then be converted into a shopping mall?

One suspects that is not the case. The poor people of the EU are going to have to shell out a bit more tax to pay for the new buildings, additional staff officers and an equally large army of civil servants.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 13:57
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“19. Ensure that all projects with regard to capabilities led by participating Member States make the European defence industry more competitive via an appropriate industrial policy which avoids unnecessary overlap.
This was always a NATO problem. USA, France and UK all vie to produce advanced combat aircraft. USA, Germany, and UK vie for MBT and so on. For a Euro policy avoiding unnecessary overlap who makes what?

Will Germany make SSC and MBT? Will France make ACV and FJ? Who will make the rifles, Germany or Belgium? What will the Irish make?
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 14:25
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@Pontius Navigator

Q What will the Irish make?
A Mine detectors
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 14:38
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Originally Posted by A_Van View Post
T28B,
Have you heard of things like C-BML, MSDL and likes?
Yes. (But I don't work in that field).
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 15:03
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Originally Posted by T28B View Post
Yes. (But I don't work in that field).


These languages automate greatly information exchange across various folks and military forces and alleviate, to a considerable extent, the "babylon tower" problem, which is quite applicable across Europe.


But if data links are damaged (jammed, nodes destroyed, etc) then, as you correctly envision, the whole bunch of language problems pops out.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 17:58
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“Even if” data links are damaged? Oh the fun of ADat-P3 different data dictionaries, Link 11 navy/identities and moving DLRPs, haphazard L-16 J message implementations...... that’s before you get to Geodetic datums and differing Lat & Long position reporting formats where the link didn’t support the format.

Last edited by ORAC; 12th Dec 2017 at 18:13.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 19:48
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Brexit will accelerate European defence integration to the detriment of NATO. UK was always US stooge against further European defence. With the UK out of Europe (and US sidelined by Trump lunacy), France/Germany will be able to form their own defence and diplomatic policy.
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 22:08
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Well that will make a change from the last century or five ..
The uks policy in Europe has been to stop a European power achieving continental dominance ..
watching the French and Germans trying to work together militarily, at arms length could be the most amusing thing for decades
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 23:31
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
@Pontius Navigator

Q What will the Irish make?
A Mine detectors

Who knows? But if the past is anything to go by, then they may well be dusting off a cottage industry making simple 9mm blow-back smg's, directionally challenged mortars and good old home brew!
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Old 13th Dec 2017, 08:49
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As the Germans have 4 times the number of MBT than France which has 4 times the number of Italy, you can see where that argument would go.
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:32
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The more they change PESCO the more it seems to duplicate NATO - and to what purpose?

Further, they would appear to want others to join based on what they can bring to the table - but insist on keeping all the positive elements to the EU members - specifically all funding and defence procurement as in the links above, and now any voice in the say of an organisation they suggest they would like the UK, Canada or the USA to join. The article below suggests their incentive would be access to procurement contracts. However, based on PESCO’s charter as given in the previous links that would be extremely naive to believe......

https://www.politico.eu/article/euro...lux-countries/

The EU’s new military pact should be opened up to countries outside the bloc — such as the U.S., Norway and the U.K. — after Brexit, according to a proposal to be discussed by European defense ministers next month.

The idea — put forward as a “food for thought paper” by Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands — would, if implemented, erode the EU exclusivity of the military cooperation forum. But it offers another way besides NATO to keep Britain, in particular, engaged in European security structures after next year. The U.K. is the biggest military spender of the current 28 EU countries and a rare one able to project force into distant combat zones. This proposal opens a path for Britain, or another so-called third country, to take a role in future EU military initiatives, including in an EU rapid reaction force.

The two-page document, titled “Third state participation in PESCO projects,” states: “Certain PESCO projects can benefit from participation by non-EU countries in terms of providing capacities, specific expertise or financial contributions that are useful for either capacity development or operations.” It proposes that third countries “be invited by the participating Member States of a PESCO project acting unanimously and on a case-by-case basis.”........

The document, which was obtained by POLITICO, has the backing of 10 other EU member countries: Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Portugal, Sweden and Finland...... The Benelux proposal lays out conditions under which the participation of a non-EU country would be considered: specific expertise or assets, economies of scale, and a financial, operational or capacity contribution to the project. But it states that “a third state will not be involved in any decision making in relation to general PESCO matters.”......

A Dutch diplomat stressed, though, that the Benelux proposal is bigger than Britain or Brexit: “It’s not only the U.K. We work a lot with Norway that could contribute, but also the U.S., Canada or Switzerland.”........









Last edited by ORAC; 11th May 2018 at 08:59.
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