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European Army

Old 10th Jun 2018, 07:43
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
well it got rid of absolute monarchy pretty early so we only chopped off 1 head rather than lots of heads like the French & Russians did/////
HH, it's a myth.
E.g., throughout the XIXth сentury number of death executions in Britain and Ireland was about 4K vs. less than 2K in the Russian Empire (and per capita the difference was even higher). As for earlier years, the difference is way bigger. "Facilities" such as the Tyburn death machine (that alone "processed" tens thousands heads) were not popular here.

I assume it's a myth about France either (except for the period of their Revolution in the end of the XVIII-th century)
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 08:09
  #42 (permalink)  
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Thatís because Russia didnít have its revolution till the XXth century - at which point its death rate accelerated considerably......

Of course executions and cutting off heads isnít the only way to kill people an, even though Russia didnít have the death penalty, that didnít stop it killing people. The following, for example, is an example of mass deportation and genocide copied in later years by Stalin......

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/151025

Last edited by ORAC; 10th Jun 2018 at 08:22.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 18:03
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC,

You are perfectly right about "Uncle Joe".We are still 100+ years behind France and its revolution. But Harry was mentioning times after absolute monarchy ended in Britain. And at that time the tsar regime in Russia was rather soft and very tolerant to various religions.

As to the main topic, I am not sure the "European Army" will work well. NATO is operational only due to the US. Without "Uncle Sam" it will be a mess.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 01:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A_Van View Post
As to the main topic, I am not sure the "European Army" will work well. NATO is operational only due to the US. Without "Uncle Sam" it will be a mess.
Having worked hand in hand with the Greeks, Turks, and Italians, NATO is as often a mess as not. But I guess it's better than the alternative.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 11:12
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Having worked hand in hand with the Greeks, Turks, and Italians, NATO is as often a mess as not. But I guess it's better than the alternative.
too true.....
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 11:18
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A_Van View Post
ORAC,

You are perfectly right about "Uncle Joe".We are still 100+ years behind France and its revolution. But Harry was mentioning times after absolute monarchy ended in Britain. And at that time the tsar regime in Russia was rather soft and very tolerant to various religions.

As to the main topic, I am not sure the "European Army" will work well. NATO is operational only due to the US. Without "Uncle Sam" it will be a mess.
Van - I was looking at when revolutions happen - some are (relatively) bloodless - such as 1648 in the UK - no-one, other than Charles I, was executed because of their social position. France 1789 - 2000-3000 aristos went, Russia 1917-18 - quite a lot of people, Spain 1940 - several thousand, probably more, China 1948 - perhaps a million or two......................., Indonesia 1965 up to a million killed
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 13:27
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
Van - I was looking at when revolutions happen - some are (relatively) bloodless - such as 1648 in the UK - no-one, other than Charles I, was executed because of their social position. France 1789 - 2000-3000 aristos went, Russia 1917-18 - quite a lot of people, Spain 1940 - several thousand, probably more, China 1948 - perhaps a million or two......................., Indonesia 1965 up to a million killed
Minor point, but King Charles was hardly executed for his social position, but for High Treason; specifically for causing the second civil war with the support of Scotland. His nominal accusers (Strongly encouraged by Cromwell) were the members of the Rump Parliament, a fair proportion of whom were titled people themselves.

Yes, I know ... picky, picky, picky
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 15:56
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CISAtSea View Post
Minor point, but King Charles was hardly executed for his social position, but for High Treason; specifically for causing the second civil war with the support of Scotland. His nominal accusers (Strongly encouraged by Cromwell) were the members of the Rump Parliament, a fair proportion of whom were titled people themselves.

Yes, I know ... picky, picky, picky
Not at all ..you're correct

quite oddly (I always thought) the English Legal profession, showing early evidence of their infinite invention, brought the charges on the basis that Charles Stewart, the man, had led a rebellion against Charles Stewart, the King -in -Parliament.......... nearly as good as Kim Il Sung who had someone shot for "leftist-rightest-tendencies".....................
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 17:35
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Kim Il Sung who had someone shot for "leftist-rightest-tendencies"
Harry, would that be a case of ambidextrous sedition? IANAL and I am not sure if that's a legal term or not.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 17:39
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Harry, would that be a case of ambidextrous sedition? IANAL and I am not sure if that's a legal term or not.
It's a bloody hard charge to defend yourself against I guess.... I mean....... "tendencies"....................

Of course the Young Leader had someone shot for putting his statue in the shade - makes J V Stalin look like Mother Theresa
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 05:44
  #51 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...e-eu-35vfr8wsf

UK may join eight countries in military unit outside EU

Nine European countries, including the UK, have signed a ďletter of intentĒ to create a joint military intervention force operating independently of the European Union.

The planned force for rapid deployment in times of crisis would include Britain after Brexit and was agreed without any involvement from Federica Mogherini, the EUís foreign affairs chief. It was also signed by France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, Estonia, Spain and Portugal. The scheme is independent from plans for greater EU defence co-operation and has been pushed by France because of concerns that Brexit could create obstacles to European military operations by excluding Britain.

The decision comes amid growing unease, especially in France and Spain, over the EUís slowness and frequent inability to take foreign policy decisions, especially military intervention. ďThe deadlines and decisions in the EU are still much too long compared to the urgency that can arise of a critical situation in a country where Europeans would consider that there is a strong stake for their security,Ē Florence Parly, the French defence minister, said. Britain and France have often expressed concern that an EU marked by diverging geopolitical interests and very different military traditions will never agree to deploy troops in combat.

President Macron proposed the idea for the ďEuropean Intervention InitiativeĒ in a speech last September in direct competition to EU plans for a new defence pact known as Permanent Structured Co-operation (Pesco). Pesco will involve 23 out of the EUís remaining 27 countries after Brexit and is widely regarded as a poor basis for serious military intervention. Its first priority project is a plan for a European medical evacuation and field hospital unit.

Britainís role in the new force follows initial opposition from Germany which has been resistant to military intervention and is a strong supporter of EU defence co-operation structures that will not include Britain after March next year. The new defence initiative will help Britainís case for a new security and defence treaty by the time of Brexit next spring. Italy is also expected to join the coalition after a decision was delayed by the forming of a new populist government.

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Old 26th Jun 2018, 13:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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So would this new European Intervention Force be deployed rapidly down to the South Atlantic to confront an Argentinian military threat to the Falklands? Would Junker and Hofstadt have our backs over the Falklands I wonder? Not at all if I'm honest.

Best Regards,

FB
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Old 27th Jun 2018, 08:01
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy View Post
So would this new European Intervention Force be deployed rapidly down to the South Atlantic to confront an Argentinian military threat to the Falklands? Would Junker and Hofstadt have our backs over the Falklands I wonder? Not at all if I'm honest.

Best Regards,

FB
Oddly enough the word EUROPEAN in the tile of the post "EUROPEAN ARMY" is a give- away... it's to defend Europe and (possibly) European interests elsewhere

If Canada decides to take over ST Pierre & Miquelon it can't really be seen as a European interest or issue. If a country wants to hold onto bits and pieces around the globe it's their choice and they can pay for it - bit much to ask us to cough up for French Imperialist hang-overs ,....... no???
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Old 28th Jun 2018, 02:14
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
Oddly enough the word EUROPEAN in the tile of the post "EUROPEAN ARMY" is a give- away... it's to defend Europe and (possibly) European interests elsewhere

If Canada decides to take over ST Pierre & Miquelon it can't really be seen as a European interest or issue. If a country wants to hold onto bits and pieces around the globe it's their choice and they can pay for it - bit much to ask us to cough up for French Imperialist hang-overs ,....... no???
Such as Mali?

Other than a 'make macron great' eurotrash campaign, I am not sure why the UK is sending 3 Chinooks, in addition to those provided by Canada - it seems to me like a Brexit concession during Napolean's visit, to which there was no return.
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Old 28th Jun 2018, 09:00
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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France isin Mali but it's not a European Union force... as you say quite why we are there is a bit odd
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Old 28th Jun 2018, 11:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
France isin Mali but it's not a European Union force... as you say quite why we are there is a bit odd
The French need some heavy lfit capability hence supporting them with Odiham's finest? It is also part of a bigger plan/picture there...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...-france-summit
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Old 29th Jun 2018, 00:12
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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The French need some heavy lfit capability hence supporting them with Odiham's finest? It is also part of a bigger plan/picture there...
I disagree - every European and their dog are sending the magical NH90, and the Canadians are sending F Model CH47's. Apart from the Canadians, most of the contributors are European, whom, if judged by recent history, will spend most of their time getting p1ssed in their bases.

As for bigger picture - Macron visited May, got a pledge for the 3 RAF Chinooks, and then knifed her in the back. Why are UK taxpayers footing the bill for duplicating the Canadian contribution? So we can rely on the French in the future?
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Old 29th Jun 2018, 10:46
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Strikes me that the future European Army is being created so as to deal with internal troubles, dissidents & leavers from the Union or Euro.
Round up migrants and send them home or somewhere, without a particular country having to take the blame.
Once created our beloved leaders will find a reason to use it, if only to encourage the others.
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 05:21
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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So, according to President Trump NATO is costing the USA too much and Europe needs to start pulling its weight.

Can he really be advocating a EU army?
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 13:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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'Joint military intervention force'

A force to facilitate a crisis like the overthrow of Gaddafi which left Libya as the unprotected African gateway for the refugee crisis which is triggering Europe.

Who Benefits?
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