European Army
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The following 2 users liked this post by Finningley Boy:
A misrepresentation, they're not spending money in the sense of improving their military capabilities and depth. One more time, they (the EU commission, council or whatever) are trying to do something entirely different, which is to put a yoke around the armed forces of all member states. It has nothing to do with improving anyone's military posture.
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The following 5 users liked this post by ExAscoteer2:
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One has to have an armed force to suppress anybody who wishes to leave or have reforms that France/Germany for that read Brussels don't like, remember Hungary 1956 and Prague in 1968.
If anybody should know about it, it is the British. NI anyone? That's why they are so flustered about a European army. They can't be bullies in the playground anymore.
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A remarkably unpleasant comment. You perhaps forget the decades of the UK's NATO commitment to European defence during the Cold War. There are several EU states that contributed nothing at all. It is the undermining of NATO, particularly at this dangerous time, that concerns many. Macron's grandstanding with the hapless von der Leyen trailing behind him is deeply destabilising and he knows it.
A remarkably unpleasant comment. You perhaps forget the decades of the UK's NATO commitment to European defence during the Cold War. There are several EU states that contributed nothing at all. It is the undermining of NATO, particularly at this dangerous time, that concerns many. Macron's grandstanding with the hapless von der Leyen trailing behind him is deeply destabilising and he knows it.
NEVER FORGET: WE WON.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.politico.eu/article/euro...ne-russia-war/
As Trump looms, top EU politician calls for European nuclear deterrent
Facing the potential return of Donald Trump to the White House, the head of the EU's biggest political grouping is calling for Europeans to prepare for war without support from the United States and to build its own nuclear umbrella.
Manfred Weber, leader of the center-right European People's Party (EPP) — currently tipped to come first in the European Parliament election in June — described Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin as "the two who set the framework" for 2024.
Trump's seemingly imminent coronation as Republican presidential contender after wins in Iowa and New Hampshire have spooked Europe, where he is remembered as a NATO skeptic, accusing EU countries of not paying their way and threatening not to come to Europe's defense if it were attacked.
“We want NATO, but we also have to be strong enough to be able to defend ourselves without it or in times of Trump," Weber said in a phone interview with POLITICO on the return leg of a train trip to Kyiv. "Regardless of who is elected in America, Europe must be able to stand on its own in terms of foreign policy and be able to defend itself independently," the influential German conservative said.
That brought him to the vexing question of European nuclear defenses. NATO currently relies heavily on U.S. nuclear warheads, which are deployed on six military air bases in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.
"Europe must build deterrence, we must be able to deter and defend ourselves," he said. "We all know that when push comes to shove, the nuclear option is the really decisive one."
Since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Putin has significantly upped his nuclear rhetoric, and regularly made veiled atomic threats toward the West.
Within the EU, the only country that would be able to play a larger role is France, which has about 300 nuclear warheads.
French President Emmanuel Macron floated the idea of a French-led European nucelar deterrent in 2020, when he called for a "strategic dialogue" on "the role of France's nuclear deterrent in [Europe's] collective security." But Germany never took up that offer. In 2022, France again urged a discussion with Berlin, saying the offer was still on the table.
According to Weber, it's now time to bring back that idea of internationalizing the "force de frappe."
"I would like to see the European dimension of nuclear defense as a long-term goal," the EPP leader said."But as long as this is not realistic, we should take up Macron's offer and think now about how France's nuclear armament can also be embedded in European structures."
The other European nuclear power — but outside the EU — is Britain, with fewer than some 260 warheads. "Perhaps, just to make the options clear, we are now at a point where, after the years and decade of Brexit, we should open a constructive dialogue with our British friends," Weber continued.
“They, too, are having difficulties in ensuring their security. They, too, are running out of money for the two aircraft carriers they have. They are also finding it difficult to maintain their capacities. And in this respect, it is perhaps now also right to start an organized structured dialogue with Great Britain."
Weber conceded that although the Continent is divided on topics such as Russia and defense, politicians from the centrist parties need to do a better job of mapping out the risks.
"We have to be honest with people," he argued. "We should not hide the reality of the threat situation in the face of Putin in order to somehow create the feeling that things won't be so bad."
As Trump looms, top EU politician calls for European nuclear deterrent
Facing the potential return of Donald Trump to the White House, the head of the EU's biggest political grouping is calling for Europeans to prepare for war without support from the United States and to build its own nuclear umbrella.
Manfred Weber, leader of the center-right European People's Party (EPP) — currently tipped to come first in the European Parliament election in June — described Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin as "the two who set the framework" for 2024.
Trump's seemingly imminent coronation as Republican presidential contender after wins in Iowa and New Hampshire have spooked Europe, where he is remembered as a NATO skeptic, accusing EU countries of not paying their way and threatening not to come to Europe's defense if it were attacked.
“We want NATO, but we also have to be strong enough to be able to defend ourselves without it or in times of Trump," Weber said in a phone interview with POLITICO on the return leg of a train trip to Kyiv. "Regardless of who is elected in America, Europe must be able to stand on its own in terms of foreign policy and be able to defend itself independently," the influential German conservative said.
That brought him to the vexing question of European nuclear defenses. NATO currently relies heavily on U.S. nuclear warheads, which are deployed on six military air bases in Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.
"Europe must build deterrence, we must be able to deter and defend ourselves," he said. "We all know that when push comes to shove, the nuclear option is the really decisive one."
Since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Putin has significantly upped his nuclear rhetoric, and regularly made veiled atomic threats toward the West.
Within the EU, the only country that would be able to play a larger role is France, which has about 300 nuclear warheads.
French President Emmanuel Macron floated the idea of a French-led European nucelar deterrent in 2020, when he called for a "strategic dialogue" on "the role of France's nuclear deterrent in [Europe's] collective security." But Germany never took up that offer. In 2022, France again urged a discussion with Berlin, saying the offer was still on the table.
According to Weber, it's now time to bring back that idea of internationalizing the "force de frappe."
"I would like to see the European dimension of nuclear defense as a long-term goal," the EPP leader said."But as long as this is not realistic, we should take up Macron's offer and think now about how France's nuclear armament can also be embedded in European structures."
The other European nuclear power — but outside the EU — is Britain, with fewer than some 260 warheads. "Perhaps, just to make the options clear, we are now at a point where, after the years and decade of Brexit, we should open a constructive dialogue with our British friends," Weber continued.
“They, too, are having difficulties in ensuring their security. They, too, are running out of money for the two aircraft carriers they have. They are also finding it difficult to maintain their capacities. And in this respect, it is perhaps now also right to start an organized structured dialogue with Great Britain."
Weber conceded that although the Continent is divided on topics such as Russia and defense, politicians from the centrist parties need to do a better job of mapping out the risks.
"We have to be honest with people," he argued. "We should not hide the reality of the threat situation in the face of Putin in order to somehow create the feeling that things won't be so bad."
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
https://www.politico.eu/article/euro...ladimir-putin/
Europe’s Trump challenge: Is it ready to fight Vladimir Putin alone?
The Continent contemplates the end of its Pax Americana.
Can Europe fend off a Russian attack on its own?
It’s a question that until now has been the stuff of fiction. But in the wake of the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine and with Donald Trump surging in the polls, it’s one European policymakers are suddenly facing.
The former — and possibly future — U.S. president has reportedly told European Union officials he won’t come to the Continent’s aid if it’s attacked. But for Europe, turning back decades of underinvestment in the military and rebuilding an industrial base would take massive amounts of money and five to 10 years, said several current and former military officials.
That’s time Europe might not have.
POLITICO looked at what capabilities Europe has now, its plans for beefing them up, and the implications of a potential end to Europe’s Pax Americana — including discussion in some countries about the need for their own, independent nuclear deterrents…..
Europe’s Trump challenge: Is it ready to fight Vladimir Putin alone?
The Continent contemplates the end of its Pax Americana.
Can Europe fend off a Russian attack on its own?
It’s a question that until now has been the stuff of fiction. But in the wake of the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine and with Donald Trump surging in the polls, it’s one European policymakers are suddenly facing.
The former — and possibly future — U.S. president has reportedly told European Union officials he won’t come to the Continent’s aid if it’s attacked. But for Europe, turning back decades of underinvestment in the military and rebuilding an industrial base would take massive amounts of money and five to 10 years, said several current and former military officials.
That’s time Europe might not have.
POLITICO looked at what capabilities Europe has now, its plans for beefing them up, and the implications of a potential end to Europe’s Pax Americana — including discussion in some countries about the need for their own, independent nuclear deterrents…..
Trump's seemingly imminent coronation as Republican presidential contender after wins in Iowa and New Hampshire have spooked Europe, where he is remembered as a NATO skeptic, accusing EU countries of not paying their way and threatening not to come to Europe's defense if it were attacked.
Why does the UK insist on being liable for the loss of blood and treasure defending Europe when (with a few notable exceptions) Europe doesn't take its own defence and freedom seriously? Why are we willing to feed our youth into the grinder of war to defend a continent that doesn't actually like us much?
Let the French and the Belgians do it, give Luxembourg and Andorra their opportunity to shine, make Germany spend on its own defence. When the Russians reach Paris (laughable given their inability to reach Kyiv) we'll start mobilising to defend the UK.
NATO is a club, and we all remember the EU's attitude to being a member of a club and paying your way.....
The following 2 users liked this post by minigundiplomat:
To be honest, apart from NATO membership which becomes a moot point in itself if Trump is re-elected, I am not sure why the UK should play a part in Europe's defence?
Why does the UK insist on being liable for the loss of blood and treasure defending Europe when (with a few notable exceptions) Europe doesn't take its own defence and freedom seriously? Why are we willing to feed our youth into the grinder of war to defend a continent that doesn't actually like us much?
Let the French and the Belgians do it, give Luxembourg and Andorra their opportunity to shine, make Germany spend on its own defence. When the Russians reach Paris (laughable given their inability to reach Kyiv) we'll start mobilising to defend the UK.
Why does the UK insist on being liable for the loss of blood and treasure defending Europe when (with a few notable exceptions) Europe doesn't take its own defence and freedom seriously? Why are we willing to feed our youth into the grinder of war to defend a continent that doesn't actually like us much?
Let the French and the Belgians do it, give Luxembourg and Andorra their opportunity to shine, make Germany spend on its own defence. When the Russians reach Paris (laughable given their inability to reach Kyiv) we'll start mobilising to defend the UK.
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The following 4 users liked this post by melmothtw:
Putin has issued direct threats to the UK on numerous occasions over the last 3 years.
And to claim that the EU is more of a spark for a war in Europe than Putin is perhaps the most delusional thing that I have ever heard.
The following 2 users liked this post by pr00ne:
In regards to your question on 1939/1940, you are looking too late; look at the early 1930's, which was when the trouble started. Mass immigration and anti-EU sentiment across the continent are providing fertile conditions for the rise of the far right. There is war coming, it's just not the one you think.
Call me delusional if it makes you feel better.... I don't really care.
Tabs please !
Perhaps the question should be "If Russia attacked the UK, what would an EU army do?".