Quitting before IOT
Like crab, I 'fell into it'. I liked engineering, had been a seagoing marine eng but decided that, one day, I'd do the marriage/family thing and long absences in the MN would not be conducive to a happy relationship. I thought I'd spend my life working in a power station.
Saw an ad for pilots and thought: 'Give it a go.'
Never looked back - sure beat the crap out of working for a living
Thank you Kennedy & Kruschev for failing to play nicely together!
Whether you (or the RAF) decide you aren't suited you'll have had a go and the experience will last forever. As a nav once said to me: 'Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted!'
Saw an ad for pilots and thought: 'Give it a go.'
Never looked back - sure beat the crap out of working for a living
Thank you Kennedy & Kruschev for failing to play nicely together!
Whether you (or the RAF) decide you aren't suited you'll have had a go and the experience will last forever. As a nav once said to me: 'Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted!'
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That can happen in any job, personally speaking go for it, if it does not work out for you after giving it your best, what have you lost, a gap year in your life... If it does work out for you the rewards will be phenomenal, and if you jack it in before giving it your best you may end up in a dull dead end boring desk job for the rest of your life thinking.......sigh.. What if.
Ohhh and you get a free watch
Ohhh and you get a free watch
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Sorry I forgot to mention it's the one job on retirement you give them the watch 
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OEVU - I have had a fairly varied career but I'm still fairly young for the average pruner (under 35!). I would say that I don't fit the 'standard UAS' image of the play hard culture. To be honest, a pretty large number of my colleagues don't, we just lead normal (boring?!) lives. Certainly don't take your UAS experience as an indicator of what life inside is like. I've spent a lot of time on/around UAS's (3 now) and all of them, whilst being full of good people, have definitely revolved around a good night in the bar.
There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.
Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.
Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).
Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.
All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.
All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.
Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.
There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.
Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.
Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).
Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.
All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.
All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.
Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.
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My career was easy, all I wanted to do was fly. The military was the best and cheapest start. Flying was all I ever did, then flew in civil aviation for 30 years.
Its flying, forget the rest.
Its flying, forget the rest.
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aevu,
Current FL FJ operator here, and with that in mind, I found your post extremely interesting, as even now your concerns are issues I have with my position in the military.
I never, however, had any doubts at your stage, and didn't even question my commitment to joining, which should be, and clearly is a worry. I was 100% dedicated, and to be honest, I think you will find IOT and subsequently flying training extremely challenging because of this (it's pretty difficult as it is!).
Several years down the line, would have I done anything different? Nope. I've loved it, overall. There are however, significant shortcomings now as life goes on, which is why I'm considering my position.
The flying is the best you will do in pretty much any flying job there is on offer, regardless of where you end up; this is what has kept me in the job thus far.
I would just say nip it in the bud early, your concerns are all warranted, and you will get frustrated. This frustration will be enhanced by the fact you are already aware of it all, and obviously query whether or not the flying is enough to overcome these.
Wrt the boozing element, I don't think that you will necessarily find that an issue. There are plenty of people that do not socialise as much as others, the main reason this occurs is that yes, you can be a bit isolated at times, but also as you've all got a lot in common, and therefore it is easy to hang out. If you don't, then you're not going to fail anything or struggle just because of this. Your UAS experience should tell you deep down your overall thoughts on this.
Don't be afraid to PM me if you have any other specific questions mate.
BB.
Current FL FJ operator here, and with that in mind, I found your post extremely interesting, as even now your concerns are issues I have with my position in the military.
I never, however, had any doubts at your stage, and didn't even question my commitment to joining, which should be, and clearly is a worry. I was 100% dedicated, and to be honest, I think you will find IOT and subsequently flying training extremely challenging because of this (it's pretty difficult as it is!).
Several years down the line, would have I done anything different? Nope. I've loved it, overall. There are however, significant shortcomings now as life goes on, which is why I'm considering my position.
The flying is the best you will do in pretty much any flying job there is on offer, regardless of where you end up; this is what has kept me in the job thus far.
I would just say nip it in the bud early, your concerns are all warranted, and you will get frustrated. This frustration will be enhanced by the fact you are already aware of it all, and obviously query whether or not the flying is enough to overcome these.
Wrt the boozing element, I don't think that you will necessarily find that an issue. There are plenty of people that do not socialise as much as others, the main reason this occurs is that yes, you can be a bit isolated at times, but also as you've all got a lot in common, and therefore it is easy to hang out. If you don't, then you're not going to fail anything or struggle just because of this. Your UAS experience should tell you deep down your overall thoughts on this.
Don't be afraid to PM me if you have any other specific questions mate.
BB.
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aevu
I finished IOT very recently, and can echo some of the comments made here in terms of the critical need for motivation. You said that Cranwell would just be a case of playing the game, that is the cadet party line, what it does not mention is sometimes that game can get on every single nerve in your body. My mate and I going through would say "Jesus Christ I just want to fly planes!" to each other a good 3 to 4 times a week. If I was not absolutely sure of my ambition to get into the cockpit some day it may have been a different story. Just ask the poor buggers at Sandhurst.
UAS wise quite a few people, myself included, were a bit shocked at just how different the RAF is to the UAS (there was more to the RAF than just flying and drinking). Having said that we were still an incredibly social bunch, we had a no doors closed before 2200 rule, the bar was well attended, and we liked to go to the gym together. Those who closed their doors at 1700 everyday not to emerge again until the next morning were not seen in a good light.
Life post IOT, I have an 11 month hold now before I start EFT, and no one else on my IOT will be starting before me. But I speak to my mates most days, and they are all off doing station visits, sunning it up in Cyprus, or acting as sandbags from the back seats of Hawks. Others are in an office from 0800 until 1730 everyday. Luck of the draw, simple as that.
Mate essentially I am inclined to agree with what the others are saying. I have wanted to be an RAF pilot since I was old enough to want anything, and to hear others be given places when I know of some people with similar motivation to me who were turned down is a bit vexing. That slot you're umming and arrring about, some people would give everything they have to take it.
Cheers easy.
I finished IOT very recently, and can echo some of the comments made here in terms of the critical need for motivation. You said that Cranwell would just be a case of playing the game, that is the cadet party line, what it does not mention is sometimes that game can get on every single nerve in your body. My mate and I going through would say "Jesus Christ I just want to fly planes!" to each other a good 3 to 4 times a week. If I was not absolutely sure of my ambition to get into the cockpit some day it may have been a different story. Just ask the poor buggers at Sandhurst.
UAS wise quite a few people, myself included, were a bit shocked at just how different the RAF is to the UAS (there was more to the RAF than just flying and drinking). Having said that we were still an incredibly social bunch, we had a no doors closed before 2200 rule, the bar was well attended, and we liked to go to the gym together. Those who closed their doors at 1700 everyday not to emerge again until the next morning were not seen in a good light.
Life post IOT, I have an 11 month hold now before I start EFT, and no one else on my IOT will be starting before me. But I speak to my mates most days, and they are all off doing station visits, sunning it up in Cyprus, or acting as sandbags from the back seats of Hawks. Others are in an office from 0800 until 1730 everyday. Luck of the draw, simple as that.
Mate essentially I am inclined to agree with what the others are saying. I have wanted to be an RAF pilot since I was old enough to want anything, and to hear others be given places when I know of some people with similar motivation to me who were turned down is a bit vexing. That slot you're umming and arrring about, some people would give everything they have to take it.
Cheers easy.
Perhaps the question you need to ask yourself is "how will I feel in the future if I don't take up this opportunity now?"
I chose my nom de prune as a direct result of having been in your position 40 years ago, albeit with the RAAF.
It took two years before I regretted my decision not to take up the offer. And I've had 38 long years of living with that regret.
And before I'm jumped on for being a starry eyed romantic with no practical experience to call on, I found my regret was validated while watching my son go through the process to earn a FJ seat.
He is based in a very remote location in a very hot climate. (not the Middle East or Afghanistan) and he loves his job.
I chose my nom de prune as a direct result of having been in your position 40 years ago, albeit with the RAAF.
It took two years before I regretted my decision not to take up the offer. And I've had 38 long years of living with that regret.
And before I'm jumped on for being a starry eyed romantic with no practical experience to call on, I found my regret was validated while watching my son go through the process to earn a FJ seat.
He is based in a very remote location in a very hot climate. (not the Middle East or Afghanistan) and he loves his job.
My mate and I going through would say "Jesus Christ I just want to fly planes!" to each other a good 3 to 4 times a week.
Why ever are people holding these days? Is it because the farce of MFTS cannot cope?
Holding very rarely has anything to do with the flying training system and a lot more to do with changing requirements on the frontline. It's easy to blame PTC/22 Gp/mfts but the reality is that holding of various lengths has always and will always be a thing if you change the demand on the frontline after or before people have been recruited and trained to fill those slots. Some folks get lucky and zip through with zero holds, others spend some time cooling their heels. The key of a long hold is to get a proper job and learn something about the real world from it.
Or more likely because the sausage machine that is the flying training system only has 2 speeds - OFF (oh no we've got too many pilots, lets stop training and chop people we have just taken to wings standard) or FULL ON (f**k Me we haven't got enough pilots - who saw that coming).
Short-term knee-jerk reactions compounded by contracting out most of the training system.
Short-term knee-jerk reactions compounded by contracting out most of the training system.
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Would say to the OP, that once your first two tours are down, the world is your oyster. If you want to get into academia, there are opportunities (that actually aren't particularly popular to the majority of the flying branch, as they are too busy enjoying flying). Google DCDC, Shrivenham Defence College, Boscombe Down and AWC. If you are of a physical sciences bent, consider the ressurected Aerosystems Course.
Location wise, personnel at Brize live within commute distance of Cheltenham, Bath and Oxford, so plenty of opportunity for a life outside of the mob. However, unless your parents are minted, the mess provides an excellent way of saving the horrendous deposit required for said house purchase.
Drinking culture - no one is going to force a beer down your neck. The days of a hardcore drinking culture are long gone, if anything, it's quite badly frowned upon (quite rightly so) if you have a reputation for drinking and are aircrew. Many head out to socialise in the local area, if you want to organise.
Bottom line, whether you like it or not, your days of university will come to an end at some day. The military offers you fantastic opportunities, far in excess of what is available as a civvie. You just have to seek them and as an officer, perhaps develop them for your own, and other benefit.
If you aren't willing to take the rough with the smooth and are going to be the guy on my crew that bitches when on the odd occasion they are sat in austre conditions (yes, that is part of the job) and make the most of it, this job isn't for you. Make no mistake, you are joining a fighting military force that until very recently, was overcommitted on 2 major conflicts with additional commitments as and when HM Government decided. If you don't see the benefit in being part of something far bigger than yourself, willing to make personal sacrifices to support activity that you may find questionable but most of the time will find highly rewarding, again, this is not for you. It's not an easy job but I wouldn't change it for the world.
Location wise, personnel at Brize live within commute distance of Cheltenham, Bath and Oxford, so plenty of opportunity for a life outside of the mob. However, unless your parents are minted, the mess provides an excellent way of saving the horrendous deposit required for said house purchase.
Drinking culture - no one is going to force a beer down your neck. The days of a hardcore drinking culture are long gone, if anything, it's quite badly frowned upon (quite rightly so) if you have a reputation for drinking and are aircrew. Many head out to socialise in the local area, if you want to organise.
Bottom line, whether you like it or not, your days of university will come to an end at some day. The military offers you fantastic opportunities, far in excess of what is available as a civvie. You just have to seek them and as an officer, perhaps develop them for your own, and other benefit.
If you aren't willing to take the rough with the smooth and are going to be the guy on my crew that bitches when on the odd occasion they are sat in austre conditions (yes, that is part of the job) and make the most of it, this job isn't for you. Make no mistake, you are joining a fighting military force that until very recently, was overcommitted on 2 major conflicts with additional commitments as and when HM Government decided. If you don't see the benefit in being part of something far bigger than yourself, willing to make personal sacrifices to support activity that you may find questionable but most of the time will find highly rewarding, again, this is not for you. It's not an easy job but I wouldn't change it for the world.
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Some jobs can be done by anyone qualified - others (surgeons, musicians, rock climbers come to mind) require a manic level of commitment
I'd put military flying in the second box - you might eventually get depressed doing it but I suspect there is no way you start sceptically and become enthused
Don't waste your time - you clearly are thinking straight and I can't see anyone criticisng you for recognising the issue and doing something about it - life is about choices
I'd put military flying in the second box - you might eventually get depressed doing it but I suspect there is no way you start sceptically and become enthused
Don't waste your time - you clearly are thinking straight and I can't see anyone criticisng you for recognising the issue and doing something about it - life is about choices
Lots of replies so far, and I think they have all been reasonable and to an extent expected in the sense of either suggesting your heart isn't in it or that you'd be mad not to at least give it a go.
The question I would ask is a little more fundamental - what do you actually want out of life? Or should I say what do you think you want out of life?
If all you want to do is fly, or that joining the military seems like a good idea to get your professional life going and flying isn't a bad option, then I think the points you make, many of which are valid, will soon come to dominate your professional existence and you could find yourself quite unhappy rather quickly.
Alternatively, if you aren't professionally motivated in the sense that chasing money and job titles isn't the be all and end all of working, and that you think you'd like to do something with your life that offers a sense of meaning and the ability to give back to society and your country - yes it's a slightly old fashioned view - and maybe even end up as a footnote in the history books, then your questions are still valid. But you will quickly come to see that they represent just a small part of the bigger picture and in the grand scheme of things are not insurmountable.
But which of these 2 avenues you really want to go down is only something you can decide. But for what it's worth, I see elements of my own thinking in your post. If you had asked me 20 years ago where I thought I would be, where I am now certainly wouldn't have been my answer. Like you I'm probably more academically minded than anything else. And I hate sitting in meetings and briefings and would much rather be achieving something than just talking about it. But they take up an increasing amount of my time as I progress up the ranks, but equally I can't deny the context of many of the meetings offers genuinely interesting insights into how Defence works. And socially I'm far happier having an intimate dinner with friends at home than I am getting hammered in the Mess although I did do a bit of that in my time on UAS as well as my first couple of tours, and the occasional dining in nights is a useful reminder about the pleasure of camaraderie. But what you need to appreciate is that we are a broad church and there is no single type that succeeds. It took me a while to work that out and when I had I became far happier in my own skin than trying to fit into some preconceived officer-shaped mould. And as one friend said to me a few months back over drinks, 'I know you get frustrated, but for as long as I've known you it really always has been about Queen and Country for you hasn't it?' . That surprised me as in many ways I'm the least military person I know, but it goes to show that we are all individuals and there is a space for us to contribute and succeed in our own ways.
All that we would ask is that you put in 100% effort into whatever you end up doing, you do the best you can and as an officer you look after those under you whilst trying to make the system that bit better. If you want a full career, your starting point will be just that, and fairly quickly you will find yourself going down avenues you didn't even know existed let alone were open; fancy being the Air Attache working in Amman for a few years? That job has just been advertised by my Deskie; bet they didn't mention those sorts of things in the Careers Office did they?
So back to you - what do you actually want from life? If it's a relatively predictable existence, money and job titles, then you may be happier elsewhere. If you have a sense of wanting to contribute back to society, there are far worse things than being paid to do it. I asked myself that very question lying in bed the night before I set off for IOT. You aren't the first and you won't be the last, so don't worry about having doubts, but it is your decision at the end of the day. We can only tell you so much about what it's like inside the wire.
The question I would ask is a little more fundamental - what do you actually want out of life? Or should I say what do you think you want out of life?
If all you want to do is fly, or that joining the military seems like a good idea to get your professional life going and flying isn't a bad option, then I think the points you make, many of which are valid, will soon come to dominate your professional existence and you could find yourself quite unhappy rather quickly.
Alternatively, if you aren't professionally motivated in the sense that chasing money and job titles isn't the be all and end all of working, and that you think you'd like to do something with your life that offers a sense of meaning and the ability to give back to society and your country - yes it's a slightly old fashioned view - and maybe even end up as a footnote in the history books, then your questions are still valid. But you will quickly come to see that they represent just a small part of the bigger picture and in the grand scheme of things are not insurmountable.
But which of these 2 avenues you really want to go down is only something you can decide. But for what it's worth, I see elements of my own thinking in your post. If you had asked me 20 years ago where I thought I would be, where I am now certainly wouldn't have been my answer. Like you I'm probably more academically minded than anything else. And I hate sitting in meetings and briefings and would much rather be achieving something than just talking about it. But they take up an increasing amount of my time as I progress up the ranks, but equally I can't deny the context of many of the meetings offers genuinely interesting insights into how Defence works. And socially I'm far happier having an intimate dinner with friends at home than I am getting hammered in the Mess although I did do a bit of that in my time on UAS as well as my first couple of tours, and the occasional dining in nights is a useful reminder about the pleasure of camaraderie. But what you need to appreciate is that we are a broad church and there is no single type that succeeds. It took me a while to work that out and when I had I became far happier in my own skin than trying to fit into some preconceived officer-shaped mould. And as one friend said to me a few months back over drinks, 'I know you get frustrated, but for as long as I've known you it really always has been about Queen and Country for you hasn't it?' . That surprised me as in many ways I'm the least military person I know, but it goes to show that we are all individuals and there is a space for us to contribute and succeed in our own ways.
All that we would ask is that you put in 100% effort into whatever you end up doing, you do the best you can and as an officer you look after those under you whilst trying to make the system that bit better. If you want a full career, your starting point will be just that, and fairly quickly you will find yourself going down avenues you didn't even know existed let alone were open; fancy being the Air Attache working in Amman for a few years? That job has just been advertised by my Deskie; bet they didn't mention those sorts of things in the Careers Office did they?
So back to you - what do you actually want from life? If it's a relatively predictable existence, money and job titles, then you may be happier elsewhere. If you have a sense of wanting to contribute back to society, there are far worse things than being paid to do it. I asked myself that very question lying in bed the night before I set off for IOT. You aren't the first and you won't be the last, so don't worry about having doubts, but it is your decision at the end of the day. We can only tell you so much about what it's like inside the wire.
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Be wary of judging the RAF based on UAS: it will be rather different. The difference might be similar to that required of judging BAE Systems or a bank on the basis of their future employees behaviour in the university Union bar.
Bar culture has changed significantly in the RAF, and an average night on an average station sees the bar relatively quiet. What else do people do? All the same things they do in the outside world up and down the country, though with better access to a free gym, climbing wall etc.
There remains a general truism that RAF stations are rural. There are fewer neighbours to wind up with aircraft movements that way, but that by no means results in a lack of access to civilisation in the real world when you want it. I have moved around the country, enjoying different scenery, mountains, coast, rolling countryside and a different view of things from life on the continent: all interesting, all different, and all full of different people.
I think it would be churlish to assume you won’t fit in just because of UAS bar behaviour you’ve witnessed, or that the infrastructure is in such a poor state that you will not enjoy whatever posting you might receive.
If, however, you are absolutely wedded to a proximity to your parental home, or inflexible in terms of how and where you are to work, you are right to question whether you would enjoy an RAF career-but you might well apply the same logic to any career elsewhere, which almost certainly will not look the same on the inside as it does from outside.
I’m not a pilot, so cannot offer any insight on that.
Bar culture has changed significantly in the RAF, and an average night on an average station sees the bar relatively quiet. What else do people do? All the same things they do in the outside world up and down the country, though with better access to a free gym, climbing wall etc.
There remains a general truism that RAF stations are rural. There are fewer neighbours to wind up with aircraft movements that way, but that by no means results in a lack of access to civilisation in the real world when you want it. I have moved around the country, enjoying different scenery, mountains, coast, rolling countryside and a different view of things from life on the continent: all interesting, all different, and all full of different people.
I think it would be churlish to assume you won’t fit in just because of UAS bar behaviour you’ve witnessed, or that the infrastructure is in such a poor state that you will not enjoy whatever posting you might receive.
If, however, you are absolutely wedded to a proximity to your parental home, or inflexible in terms of how and where you are to work, you are right to question whether you would enjoy an RAF career-but you might well apply the same logic to any career elsewhere, which almost certainly will not look the same on the inside as it does from outside.
I’m not a pilot, so cannot offer any insight on that.