Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

UK MFTS on or off the rails?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

UK MFTS on or off the rails?

Old 2nd Aug 2019, 09:51
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 67
Posts: 328
Wander00,

The question I would ask is, was you Boss wrong to assume that all of his CR pilots were trained in ALL of the basic facets of Military Aviation? I think not.

I to was caught out when leading a Night AAR Convex. I assumed that the 27 year old Graduate, Creamie with 1000 hrs was trained in basic night formation. It was only when we got behind the VC10 that it became evident that all was not well. After 30 minutes and never even getting to the waiting position we decided to RTB, much to the VC10 crews relief.
The debrief lasted quite a long time and we (the supervisors) were guilty in assuming that this pilot had received similar training to our selves (prior to mirror image).

By the time I was the age I had completed two Front Line tours and was an Instructor on an OCU!

The training system has been eroded over many years. Driven by financiers and not defended by Staff Officers looking after their own careers. When did the RAF last conduct a detailed assessment of the REAL capability expected of our Combat Ready pilots and then defined the best and correct (not financially driven) training required. Then the RAF would be able to define a true training requirement which could be conducted by itself, not outsourced to the lowest bidder. Countries such as Sweden have done this to good effect!
Dominator2 is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 10:57
  #322 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Middle England
Posts: 551
I'm with you on this BV.
Before always talking down to us oiks maybe just put yourself in our shoes and think how it must feel to have to read endless posts from retired members telling us all what a crap job we are doing.
So many of those offering advice left the service decades ago and haven't the faintest idea what being in the current RAF is all about.
J_J
Jumping_Jack is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 15:29
  #323 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 427
I hope that I have never suggested that those currently serving are doing “ a crap job” but they do seem to be served by a crap training system, slowly eroded as Dom suggests above. If someone currently in the know can reassure me as a taxpayer and NOK that the system is not FUBAR then I shall be delighted.
Timelord is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:42
  #324 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Actually, I remember my first QFI back in the early 90s. Pretty poor quality low average delivery. A lot of ĎI can do it, why canít you?í. His solution even involved the odd cuff round the head. Then again, he was a Victor Tanker co pilot, so not a lot upstairs.
If thatís what you want to call a world class training system then you perhaps want to remove the rose tinted beer glasses for about 5 seconds. Todayís instructors are of far higher quality and the modern day RAF is in a better place than it was under the Cold War duffers who never saw any action anyway.
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:45
  #325 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
Age: 57
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.
Formation was never taught at METS. I did formation at BFTS. The next time I did it was on my AAR course.
ExAscoteer is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:47
  #326 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 840
Originally Posted by high spirits View Post
the modern day RAF is in a better place than it was under the Cold War duffers who never saw any action anyway.
Fish much?
downsizer is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 16:56
  #327 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Fish much?

No, Iím not after a bite. Some of the moronic and unfounded comments from ex RAF aircrew on this page just goad me to fight fire with fire.....

high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 17:20
  #328 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 67
Posts: 328
high spirits,

If that’s what you want to call a world class training system then you perhaps want to remove the rose tinted beer glasses for about 5 seconds. Today’s instructors are of far higher quality and the modern day RAF is in a better place than it was under the Cold War duffers who never saw any action anyway
No, I’m not after a bite. Some of the moronic and unfounded comments from ex RAF aircrew on this page just goad me to fight fire with fire.....
If that is the kind of infantile discussion in which you wish to part take, hard luck. You forget, or maybe never knew, that many of us who served for 40 years were both Cold War Warriors and saw quite a lot of action since then. Equally, many of us have a wealth of experience instructing in the myriad of systems that the RAF has introduced since the 70s. If you wish to have a mature discussion, I'm sure that some may wish to join you. No one has 100% ownership of being right all of the time.
Dominator2 is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 17:46
  #329 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
high spirits,




If that is the kind of infantile discussion in which you wish to part take, hard luck. You forget, or maybe never knew, that many of us who served for 40 years were both Cold War Warriors and saw quite a lot of action since then. Equally, many of us have a wealth of experience instructing in the myriad of systems that the RAF has introduced since the 70s. If you wish to have a mature discussion, I'm sure that some may wish to join you. No one has 100% ownership of being right all of the time.
Thanks for your contribution Dominator. So what else does this thread serve to do apart from give a few of you a chance to gob off about how much better it used to be? If formation is such an issue, why are we not having more high profile incidents with it? 2 x Phenom colliding is small beer, and yes I know how many we have. We used to throw aircraft away with monotonous regularity in the 50s-80s. I would argue that we are just as capable now with fewer hours to go round and that the quality of training is better. This isnít due to more hours, but higher quality. There you go, discuss that.
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:08
  #330 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,575
high spirits wrote:
2 x Phenom colliding is small beer, and yes I know how many we have.
It is quite impossible to have a serious debate with anyone who would make such a facile and frankly ridiculous statement.
BEagle is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:44
  #331 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by high spirits View Post
I would argue that we are just as capable now with fewer hours to go round and that the quality of training is better. This isnít due to more hours, but higher quality. There you go, discuss that.
In a nutshell, bollocks.
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 18:46
  #332 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 934
Originally Posted by high spirits View Post

If formation is such an issue, why are we not having more high profile incidents with it?
Because we'd need 2 serviceable aircraft to fly formation?
pba_target is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 20:42
  #333 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 556
ExAscoteer

Just for accuracy, formation has been in the METS syllabus for many years. It wasn’t when I did the MEXO course in 1985, but very much so when I was a QFI 1997-2000.
deltahotel is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:25
  #334 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 17
I to was caught out when leading a Night AAR Convex. I assumed that the 27 year old Graduate, Creamie with 1000 hrs was trained in basic night formation
Now why on earth would you have assumed that?
FixClrEnt is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:29
  #335 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
high spirits wrote:

It is quite impossible to have a serious debate with anyone who would make such a facile and frankly ridiculous statement.
Go back to your cup of cocoa in the old folks home BEagle. What do you seriously bring to a debate on MFTS?
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:31
  #336 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
In a nutshell, bollocks.
thanks, quality chat. You bring nothing to the party either......
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:32
  #337 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by pba_target View Post
Because we'd need 2 serviceable aircraft to fly formation?
I meant on the front line.
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:36
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 934
Originally Posted by high spirits View Post

I meant on the front line.
So did I, of course!
pba_target is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 21:37
  #339 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by pba_target View Post
So did I, of course!
haha, touchť
high spirits is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2019, 22:07
  #340 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
Age: 57
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
Just for accuracy, formation has been in the METS syllabus for many years. It wasn’t when I did the MEXO course in 1985, but very much so when I was a QFI 1997-2000.
I did METS in 1988 and it certainly wasn't taught then. I've checked my Logbook, my Formation training was on JP5A at Cranditz. My next exposure to Formation (on Nimrod) was my AAR course.

After that it was AAR on Albert.

Thence on the Domine

I was a QFI on the Jetstream post Domine and cannot recall teaching formation.

Last edited by ExAscoteer; 3rd Aug 2019 at 00:47.
ExAscoteer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.