UK MFTS on or off the rails?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.
Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
More important, how is the teaching of close formation coming along for Multi Eng students.
Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
Has the Royal Air Force changed the syllabus to be inline with the Civvies and abandoned teaching any advanced military techniques? I hope not but the dulling down to the absolute basics seems to be prevalent.
FFS, you lot just don't trust anyone "in" these days do you. Such a shame you all buggered off and left us in such dire straits. Perhaps you could all come back and save us from ourselves.
....
Will the 100 or so RAF multi-engine student pilots who are currently doing their ME training on the DA42 get their formation training from their civvy instructors or sometime later, when back with the mob ?
LFH
.......
Will the 100 or so RAF multi-engine student pilots who are currently doing their ME training on the DA42 get their formation training from their civvy instructors or sometime later, when back with the mob ?
LFH
.......
Last edited by Lordflasheart; 30th Jul 2019 at 20:30. Reason: tense clarification as underlined
JaJ
You have basically stolen my post. I was going to say the same on this and another thread but I can economise now.
As much as we appreciate the experience of our forebears maybe they could trust us a little more.
I find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable for ex-serviceman to criticise the current generation with impunity but those currently serving should always ‘respect their elders’.
I am happy to keep my powder dry most of the time and I fully accept that there are many retired people on here that are very respectful but the rantings of the few do get a little tiresome.
I mean, let’s be honest, if the government didn’t have to pay the pensions of the baby boomers maybe there would be a little more spare cash to go around.
BV
🤭
As much as we appreciate the experience of our forebears maybe they could trust us a little more.
I find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable for ex-serviceman to criticise the current generation with impunity but those currently serving should always ‘respect their elders’.
I am happy to keep my powder dry most of the time and I fully accept that there are many retired people on here that are very respectful but the rantings of the few do get a little tiresome.
I mean, let’s be honest, if the government didn’t have to pay the pensions of the baby boomers maybe there would be a little more spare cash to go around.
BV
🤭
Anything else?
Formation
LFH et al - hang about there! In the halcyon days of gold plated syllabi (before SAFT), lots of students (and FTS's), close formation was always taught on the JP ( the single engine option), but there was none at all on the Varsity Course (AFT) even tho' we had lots of dented Varsitys as well. There was none taught on the Shack OCU (MOTU) although I was shown it on a staff training sortie. The first formation handling sortie came on the Squadron as a co-pilot, and even some of the captains hadn't done any either.
So things haven't really changed that much regards formation
LFH et al - hang about there! In the halcyon days of gold plated syllabi (before SAFT), lots of students (and FTS's), close formation was always taught on the JP ( the single engine option), but there was none at all on the Varsity Course (AFT) even tho' we had lots of dented Varsitys as well. There was none taught on the Shack OCU (MOTU) although I was shown it on a staff training sortie. The first formation handling sortie came on the Squadron as a co-pilot, and even some of the captains hadn't done any either.
So things haven't really changed that much regards formation
TC
I’m pretty sure they do multi ship close formation aerobatics on a daily basis. Or...
Yes I’m being facetious and no, I have no idea of the correct answer. I’m sure they used to do it regularly back in the good old days though. I look forward to the stories.
BV
Yes I’m being facetious and no, I have no idea of the correct answer. I’m sure they used to do it regularly back in the good old days though. I look forward to the stories.
BV
AAR in the VC10 was a vital skill
I was instructing on the Ten when we started to get the first pilots through the RAF training system who bypassed BFT and arrived at the OCU with just 3:45 formation time on the Firefly. It was a big shock and some needed extra hours learning a skill on an aircraft costing ten grand an hour to operate to save a couple of grand on the cheaper aircraft. Savings at the early stage lead to far greater expenditure down the line. It seems to me that MFTS with it's cut back syllabus to save cash is going to cost the customer in the long run.
My airline went down this line being an early adopter of MPL (Multi Pilot Licence) training where it was possible to have a pilot in an airliner with less than 100 hours in their logbook. It was intended these new cadets, having been heavily versed in the company mantra would able to operate to the new philosophy where SOPs could replace experience and airmanship. It turned out the base cost of MPL only offered a small saving on the cost of a CPL - but the accountants had done their job and MPL was in. However, the increased cost of extra training after failed checks and added engineering with the cost of hard landing inspections and aircraft down time meant that it was a false saving. Having been an early adopter of MPL, we are now an early rejecter of the system. All our cadets now go through the CPL system.
Hi Dan! Actually it was worse than that - you needed 2 x VC10 to teach formation! Each costing £10K per hour... The MELIN lemons were really short changed.
Teaching co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of any jet formation time previously was something of a challenge - particularly at night!
BV will moan, but the old JP course (before all that Gp 1 Ph 1 drivel) turned out generic pilots with a full training background, who were then streamed FJ, ME or RW before AFTS. Even if they went to ME, that meant the training was in the long term memory, so if they went to a type which required formation flying as a normal way of life, it wasn't a huge shock to the system. It also meant that if they became BFTS or UAS QFIs at a later date, learning formation training was pretty straightforward.
Teaching co-pilots who hadn't had the benefit of any jet formation time previously was something of a challenge - particularly at night!
BV will moan, but the old JP course (before all that Gp 1 Ph 1 drivel) turned out generic pilots with a full training background, who were then streamed FJ, ME or RW before AFTS. Even if they went to ME, that meant the training was in the long term memory, so if they went to a type which required formation flying as a normal way of life, it wasn't a huge shock to the system. It also meant that if they became BFTS or UAS QFIs at a later date, learning formation training was pretty straightforward.
Seriously though, you need to fly close formation should you be required to participate in AAR. In 1982 we had to very rapidly generate an AAR capable element of the Nimrod force. We were able to achieve this because all the pilots had a grounding in basic formation techniques. It may have been a long time ago they learned it, but if taught correctly it's a bit like riding a bike, you might be shaky at first but regain proficiency quite quickly. It also helped enormously that many of the OCU QFIs had taught formation at BFTS. Thus we were able to transfer their skills to the Nimrod. Add the AARIs from other places to the mix to develop the skills and teach the specific AAR elements and we achieved the goals in a remarkably short time.
Would the RAF ever be required to do something like that again though? Well you may wish to consider that we never envisaged having to do it the first time around!
YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 31st Jul 2019 at 15:00.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
BEagle, I totally agree with you. IMHO the RAF would be better equipped if all pilots were trained in all of the basics of military aviation such as formation and aerobatics. It is never known when those skills will be called upon even if initially assigned to a "large aircraft" or rotary.
BV, there are many retired aviators with a wealth of experience and every just now and then may be able to be helpful to solve today's problems. Sometimes the answer seems obvious when viewing from the outside. I do not believe that many post on this site maliciously. And yes you were being facetious.
BV, there are many retired aviators with a wealth of experience and every just now and then may be able to be helpful to solve today's problems. Sometimes the answer seems obvious when viewing from the outside. I do not believe that many post on this site maliciously. And yes you were being facetious.
Dominator
If you read my post properly you’d see that I pointed out that those currently serving do respect the opinions of their forebears.
What gets people backs up though is the notion that only the ‘old and bold’ can see the problems and that those of us left in are blind to the problems or solutions.
You kind of reinforced my point a little bit by immediately protesting.
Of course we could quite easily blame our forebears for handing us a sh1t sandwich couldn’t we? One that we’ve had to sort out without any help from the ‘experts’.
Before always talking down to us oiks maybe just put yourself in our shoes and think how it must feel to have to read endless posts from retired members telling us all what a crap job we are doing.
I am not saying you personally are guilty but only a blind man can’t see how several regular posters do exactly what I am suggesting.
BV
What gets people backs up though is the notion that only the ‘old and bold’ can see the problems and that those of us left in are blind to the problems or solutions.
You kind of reinforced my point a little bit by immediately protesting.
Of course we could quite easily blame our forebears for handing us a sh1t sandwich couldn’t we? One that we’ve had to sort out without any help from the ‘experts’.
Before always talking down to us oiks maybe just put yourself in our shoes and think how it must feel to have to read endless posts from retired members telling us all what a crap job we are doing.
I am not saying you personally are guilty but only a blind man can’t see how several regular posters do exactly what I am suggesting.
BV
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
BV,
I am reluctant to say it but you appear to have a chip on your shoulder.
When you say
please don't include the many of us close to the coal face who tried to stop the "sh1t sandwich" from happening.
Equally, there are many who genuinely would like to help. Believe or not but after 41 years fast jet/multi eng flying one becomes attached and maintains a strong interest. We are saddened that some Senior Officers sold their souls. Difficult to know how a few manage to sleep at night.
It is fully understood that many are working very hard to make it work, however, many things are flawed from the outset!
I am reluctant to say it but you appear to have a chip on your shoulder.
When you say
we could quite easily blame our forebears for handing us a sh1t sandwich couldn’t we? One that we’ve had to sort out without any help from the ‘experts’
Equally, there are many who genuinely would like to help. Believe or not but after 41 years fast jet/multi eng flying one becomes attached and maintains a strong interest. We are saddened that some Senior Officers sold their souls. Difficult to know how a few manage to sleep at night.
It is fully understood that many are working very hard to make it work, however, many things are flawed from the outset!
The discussion of formation flying has dredged up a 50 odd year old memory. A year or so after 360 got the T 17 life started to get more interesting with increasingly challenging profiles, at least for this first tourist and by now the only fg off captain in Signals Command/90 Signals Group. One morning the programme detailed a 4 ship for some exercise. Boss briefed the sortie. "Any questions". "Yes, Sir" quoth I, I have never flown a Canberra in formation." "That's OK, its mainly a box 4, you go in the slot and follow me." I was doing quite well until he called the echelon for the run and break on return.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
Wander00,
The question I would ask is, was you Boss wrong to assume that all of his CR pilots were trained in ALL of the basic facets of Military Aviation? I think not.
I to was caught out when leading a Night AAR Convex. I assumed that the 27 year old Graduate, Creamie with 1000 hrs was trained in basic night formation. It was only when we got behind the VC10 that it became evident that all was not well. After 30 minutes and never even getting to the waiting position we decided to RTB, much to the VC10 crews relief.
The debrief lasted quite a long time and we (the supervisors) were guilty in assuming that this pilot had received similar training to our selves (prior to mirror image).
By the time I was the age I had completed two Front Line tours and was an Instructor on an OCU!
The training system has been eroded over many years. Driven by financiers and not defended by Staff Officers looking after their own careers. When did the RAF last conduct a detailed assessment of the REAL capability expected of our Combat Ready pilots and then defined the best and correct (not financially driven) training required. Then the RAF would be able to define a true training requirement which could be conducted by itself, not outsourced to the lowest bidder. Countries such as Sweden have done this to good effect!
The question I would ask is, was you Boss wrong to assume that all of his CR pilots were trained in ALL of the basic facets of Military Aviation? I think not.
I to was caught out when leading a Night AAR Convex. I assumed that the 27 year old Graduate, Creamie with 1000 hrs was trained in basic night formation. It was only when we got behind the VC10 that it became evident that all was not well. After 30 minutes and never even getting to the waiting position we decided to RTB, much to the VC10 crews relief.
The debrief lasted quite a long time and we (the supervisors) were guilty in assuming that this pilot had received similar training to our selves (prior to mirror image).
By the time I was the age I had completed two Front Line tours and was an Instructor on an OCU!
The training system has been eroded over many years. Driven by financiers and not defended by Staff Officers looking after their own careers. When did the RAF last conduct a detailed assessment of the REAL capability expected of our Combat Ready pilots and then defined the best and correct (not financially driven) training required. Then the RAF would be able to define a true training requirement which could be conducted by itself, not outsourced to the lowest bidder. Countries such as Sweden have done this to good effect!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Middle England
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you on this BV.
So many of those offering advice left the service decades ago and haven't the faintest idea what being in the current RAF is all about.
J_J
Before always talking down to us oiks maybe just put yourself in our shoes and think how it must feel to have to read endless posts from retired members telling us all what a crap job we are doing.
J_J