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The REAL RED BARON

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The REAL RED BARON

Old 5th Oct 2017, 13:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The triplane ,with a dying pilot, landed roughly and after running a short distance then flipped up on its nose. Richtofen's body jackknifed (only lap straps at that time)and his face hit the gun butts, smashing it up nastily, as is evident in the post -mortem photographs . I think these were published in Dale Titler's "The Day the Red Baron Died". For a number of reasons I do not think he survived the landing post the nose hitting the ground.
As to how much of his body was actually re-interred to Germany is another matter that was investigated by Titler with surprising results. Read the book!
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 17:59
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Shoulder straps used for this very very well known film. Perhaps not normally used by him without cameras pointing.

Rob
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 19:29
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PPRuNe. Absolutely agreed from the film that he obviously is strapping in with shoulder straps.

Anybody have some more info on this?

P.S. In 1978 Haraka and H.Snr. spent some time around Corbie researching the circumstances of Richthofen's final flight. We were within 100 yds of his final demise near the crossroads , bearing in mind that many before were unaware of local road modification . Sgt Popkin's (2nd Australian Machine Gun Corps) claim would seem to have some merit ,analyzing the local terrain ,including their high commanding position over the River,a fact not considered by many who have not actually physically ground checked the terrain.
Also remember that Roy Brown never initially claimed the kill. It was very much a political push from those on high.

Last edited by Haraka; 5th Oct 2017 at 20:16.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 19:44
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Whether he did it all the time is a moot point. He seems to be checking that he can operate the gun cocking levers whilst strapped in.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 21:04
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I'm don't think it is Herman Goring in this film.

At the time of the film being made in Sept 1917 Goring was still serving with Jasta 27, and wasn't awarded his Pour le Merite until June 1918, and didn't join the Richthofen Circus until the following month in July 1918.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 21:21
  #26 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by CONSO View Post
amazing footage-

sent to me by a friend - just posted recently



probably not squirting oil but priming with petrol . .


It looks like an oil can to me (I have a similar one which I inherited from my father in law). The engine had exposed valve gear so oiling by hand would be a routine thing.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 21:35
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To me it looked like he was opening one of the valves and squirting a little fuel in, if he was lubricating the valve gear then surely he would do two per cylinder? We did rotary on my mechs course so long ago lol.

Modern film of them doing it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C6xX0zSvp7w

Possibly in the exhaust valve?

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...erursel-engine

Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Oct 2017 at 22:09.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 23:11
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Rotary Nutloose?
How old are you?
Radial I might believe.


http://www.cams.net.nz/Gnome%20Remanufacture.html
Good shots of a Gnome here, the Oberursel in the Fokker was similar

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...-build-history

Last edited by ericferret; 5th Oct 2017 at 23:23.
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Old 5th Oct 2017, 23:17
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I'm don't think it is Herman Goring in this film.

At the time of the film being made in Sept 1917 Goring was still serving with Jasta 27, and wasn't awarded his Pour le Merite until June 1918, and didn't join the Richthofen Circus until the following month in July 1918.
Agreed, It doesn't seem to fit.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 01:11
  #30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
To me it looked like he was opening one of the valves and squirting a little fuel in, if he was lubricating the valve gear then surely he would do two per cylinder? We did rotary on my mechs course so long ago lol.

Modern film of them doing it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C6xX0zSvp7w

Possibly in the exhaust valve?

Oberursel UR.II Engine | The Vintage Aviator
NOTE the clear plastic line on the "oil" can remains cleasr as he pumps it. Most oils of the time and nowdays are NOT clear. by comparison many gasoline compounds can be clear

I vote for gas primer.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 05:18
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It's definately priming with fuel.
Starting the Le Rhone is a relatively simple procedure ........ A person is needed to prime the engine through the exhaust ports or alternately swing the propeller in an attempt to “windmill” the engine to suck in the intake charge.
Nieuport 11 Bebe | The Vintage Aviator

The above link is most interesting, these guys build relica WWI aircraft, including the engines from scratch. The engine in the Fokker Dr.I was a German copy of the Le Rhône 9J, as used in the Sopwith Camel, though made of inferior materials. The Vintage Aviator group found various parts interchangable.

Richthofen's funeral.



Analysis by some has said that Brown was never in a position to be able to fire the fatal bullet on the trajectory found. As said previously, at no time did Brown ever claim that it was he who was responsible.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 10:54
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The exact wording from Browns combat report is as follows.


"Went back again and dived on a pure red triplane which was firing on Lieut May. I got a long burst into him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lieut Mellersh and Lieut May."

The artillery report says

"German shot down by 53 Battery AFA this morning was famous Baron Von Richthofen."

On the subject of shoulder straps I would suggest that they might not worn in combat as they would restrict the pilots ability to turn to look over the shoulder. They appear to be very wide.

On the subject of the crash his facial injuries were described as superficial by the examining medical officers so a heavy crash is unlikely. This is supported by there being no damage to the recovered machine guns and the wings being intact. It was a collision with a wurzel heap that brought about a sudden stop.

On the return to Germany of his body he was buried in the Invaliden Cemetery Berlin.
The intention had been to bury him in Schweidnitz Silesia but this did not happen.


The life of Von Richthofen was my school project in 1971 so I have always had an interest.

Last edited by ericferret; 6th Oct 2017 at 11:35.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 14:53
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a heavy crash is unlikely
Reports were that the aircraft suffered very little damage, undercarriage and fuel tank being mentioned.

On April 22, 1918, the consulting surgeon and the consulting physician of the British 4th Army examined the body, finding the fatal wound, a compound fracture of the lower jaw on the left side, and also some minor bruising of the head and face.

Richthofen had been shot in the head during action on 6 July 1917, which required surgery, and stayed at field hospital No 76 in Kortrik, Belgium, until 26 July. He had been diagnosed as having a concussion and cerebral haemorrhage. The skull wound had not closed, and it is probable that bare bone may still have been visible upon death, though post mortem makes no mention. The change in his demeanour following the head wound suggested he may have suffered a neurological disorder as a result, though his Mother thought it a result of action seen during the war generally.


http://www.anzacs.net/MvR-MedicalExam.htm

Wreckage after the souvenir hunters had their fill.

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Old 6th Oct 2017, 16:31
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As Richthofen suffered a head wound in July 1917, it appears to have healed remarkably fast, as if that clip is September, he has no difficulty with jerky head movement, whipping off his cap and donning flying helmet and securely checking his goggles.
Patch 'em up and send them back....
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 17:26
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Originally Posted by ericferret View Post
Rotary Nutloose?
How old are you?
Radial I might believe.

I believe nut is old enough to have it correct. If referring to the Dr1, the engine was "rotary".
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 17:53
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I was referring to Nutloose claim to have trained on a rotary not on engine type fitted to MvR's aircraft which was clearly a rotary not a radial.

Nutloose cant be that old surely.
The rotaries other than a few in historical aircraft bid the dust in the 1920's.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 18:54
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Maybe it was a Wankel rotary.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 20:59
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Thanks for the amazing video.
My first thoughts were, at 2:17 when he's briefing his Sqn, how many were putting on a brave face for the camera? As it must have been petrifying and a real test of nerve to be a ww1 pilot.
From what I've read only the Germans experimented with parachutes in 1918 and even then they didn't have a good success rate. I believe Ernst Udet, the highest scoring German fighter pilot to survive that war, the second-highest scoring after Manfred von Richthofen and later WW2 Luftwaffe General, had a lucky escape using a parachute. Ernst Udet has an interesting life story on Wikipedia!
At the end of the video, the Royal Flying Corps (looking at the pips on his sleeves) Prisoner of War must have felt lucky, it could have been worse.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 23:45
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Interesting post on the flypast forums quoted in full

This footage was filmed by Tony Fokker, a prolific movie maker during his adult life. Most of what you see was staged for filming. Of note is the segment that has Fokker pointing out the bullet holes in the cowl of the downed aircraft. Not many civilians were given access to the front lines. Yes, Goering is in this film along with other notables. The original copies of this footage are held in the Hugh Wynne archive of the University of Texas, Dallas. While copies can be purchased on DVD, they are, of course, not to be copied or distributed the way this one has. No wonder archives have difficulties.

Regards
John
Eric,

1970's, surprisingly we covered Rotary as well as Radial, we were one of the last engine courses at St Athans to do pistons, ( 4 SofTT ) it was all part of the introduction to piston engine design... strange as it may seem today .
The shed was full of piston engines including cut away sleeve engines etc.... fast forward to the modern times and I was looking over a Spitfire being worked on and I commented oooohh it has a hot pot in it, I have never seen that in real life.. and they were dumbfounded and didn't know what one was lol.....
Don't forget, at the time the RAF were still operating piston aircraft, Hastings etc were on their last legs but still in service, and also the likes of the Pembroke, so they needed to train you for any future possible type and to do that they had to go through design and differences in thereof.
We were even taught prop swinging which I thought was a mugs game and have never done it since, the opportunity has come up and I have declined LOL. We even had various aircraft on the station such as a Pup I think...
Heck I even got roped into being on a running team when they ran the ME410, Focke Wulf 190 and Kawasaki Ki-100-1b "Tony" etc for the BBC to record the engine sounds...all sadly now silent at Cosford.. fascinating times and was I was glad to have been apart of what will never probable be repeated.


..


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 7th Oct 2017 at 00:05.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 01:55
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it appears to have healed remarkably fast
If you look at the video at the 1:48 point you can see what appears to be a chin strap for his cap. Removal of the cap shows it not to be a chin strap, but I'm guessing retention for a dressing on his head wound.
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