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Jet spin training.

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Jet spin training.

Old 28th Sep 2017, 08:46
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Jet spin training.

Can any Gnat and Hawk QFIs tell me what spin training was/is conducted at Valley on these two types.

I am particularly interested in the recovery technique, taught by CFS, from fully developed spins on these swept wing types, and if there was any supplementary procedure such as inspin aileron.

When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques. (The JP with fuel in the tips had very similar spin characterstics, except for the ROD (!) to the Lightning and the JP standard recovery would , we were told by Boscombe, work on the Lightning, height permitting.

Is any spin refreshing done for Tornado pilots, or is a MB recovery. I assume FBW won't allow the Typhoon to spin!

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 4th Oct 2017 at 17:00.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 12:06
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The only spin recovery training I recall on the Tornado was watching the video of the GR1 trials and revising in my head the spin-recovery drill from the FRCs.


The ac was not cleared to spin in normal service.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 14:08
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I did the Hawk Course in 1984 and did spin recovery. I seem to remember that it was just the case of centralising the controls and closing the throttle. It came out of the spin a turn later. Was that due to the Toblarones on the wing leading edge???

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Old 28th Sep 2017, 14:37
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When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques
FWIW I had the secondary duty of running "Spinexs" out of CFS in the late 80s ...at that time we certainly spun the Lightning folks at Binbrook and UK F4 crews ( front and back seat), don't recall any Tornado spinning.

The F4 recovery certainly didn't have much commonality with that used on the JP so we got the guys to recite their recovery actions whilst we did the handling.....that sometimes had it's interesting moments since we had approval to use "out spin" aileron to get an oscillatory spin going...I think it was a bit of an eye opener for those who had trained on the JP and expected something quite benign.

I used to enjoy going off and doing them, and hopefully our victims had a bit of fun as well....with a bit of coaching I had more than one F4 navigator fly pretty much the whole detail apart from the rotational bit!!!!
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 15:06
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Definitely no spin training on the Gnat - intentional spinning was strictly verboten
No spin training done on the Hawk at the TWU although I believe that spin training was done on the Hawk by 4FTS at Valley prior to students coming to the TWU. It was almost impossible to spin the Hawk accidentally as, the moment it departed, letting go of the controls effected an immediate recovery and you could immediately get back to the business of trying to shoot down your opponent. (what else would you be doing to go incipient?)
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 15:32
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Spinning is currently taught to students and is a periodic currency for staff throughout the Hawk training system.

Brief but to the point!

BV
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 15:45
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propos nothing at all, I learned spinning in a Meteor VII in 1950. "A rough ride may be expected", said the P.N. - and they weren't kidding !

Danny.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 16:41
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On the Gnat, we were briefed a form of recovery rather than having any incipient spinning demo.

There were 2 yaw dolls' eyes, but no turn and slip (or turn co-ordinator )

I think it went something like:

'Boot the black' (Rudder towards the black doll's eye)
'Punch the white' (Control column towards the white doll's eye)
'Set 6 nose-up' (Move control column to achieve 6 nose-up on the tailplane incidence gauge)
'Leave the throttle where it is'
'Wait...and hope!'
'When the music stops, recover from the dive'
'If it hasn't recovered by the briefed height, punch out immediately'

Forgiving little beast providing it wasn't provoked - centralising and waiting was often sufficient. As it was when I once saw more AoA than IAS in an F-4...

I only spun in the Hawk T1 once during my refresher course - it was a very 'canned' exercise with a choreographed entry procedure and was rather a waste of time. "Unload for control" was much simpler!

Last edited by BEagle; 28th Sep 2017 at 19:36.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 17:07
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In the Gnat do I recall a white mark against which to put the 'stick' to get ailerons neutral? then having 'kicked the black' I seem to remember tail to 6 and wait. I had an incident of uncommanded rapid roll at low speed where the 'GIB' punching out effected a fairly rapid recovery. Not in the FRC's but it worked.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 17:29
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JF can elaborate but we were a bit cautious about the value of 'spinex' in the Harrier force, because having centralised and possibly shut down a surging motor the recovery action was stick back to un-mask the rudder. I don't recall a 'bona jet' i.e GR ever getting into a full spin by accident, indeed I think that it would only 'spin' if the donk was shut down.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 18:01
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Originally Posted by nipva View Post
...letting go of the controls effected an immediate recovery and you could immediately get back to the business of trying to shoot down your opponent. (what else would you be doing to go incipient?)[/FONT]
That brought back a memory or two.

On the Tornado we were supposed to do counterintuitive stuff with the stick to keep us busy. After watching the altitude used on the spin trial videos I didn't anticipate doing much. It was often quipped that it was a 2-stage drill - put the SPILS switch into a less incriminating position for the accident photos before leaving.

That said, the Tornado spin was rather pedestrian compared to the Jaguar.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 18:31
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Having done a bit of spinning in my time and, remembering the different recovery drills of the types, it is interesting to hark back to the recent thread where the limited amount of aircraft handling in today's flying training was discussed.

OAP
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 19:17
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Interestingly, use of in-spin aileron to recover is not peculiar to Jets.......the TP120 (Prefect) uses in-spin aileron as part of the normal recovery.

As a student, and QFI, on the Hawk spinning was part of the syllabus.....I seem to recall some instability in the spin, and one of the recovery criteria was excessive side forces, suggesting as others allude to that it was reluctant to spin anyway. Centralising always worked.

In the F4 unload for control was the order of the day if it departed. If it entered an actual spin then I do not recall the full spin recovery drill, but I do recall that deploying the drag chute was used at some stage. The F4 Spin trials video is entertaining; as F4 crews we (every 5 years?) were "spun" in the JP. More about reminding us what pitch and yaw / rapid rotation together felt like than practicing the F4 drill frankly. The F4 used to slice as I recall but gave lots of warning beforehand ('course us, young, ham-fisted JPs looking over our shoulder while getting your brains gunned out sometimes missed that warning!).
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 07:36
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Tremblers around the 77 timeframe.


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Old 29th Sep 2017, 09:16
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In 1962 our Vampires were getting a bit twitter and bisted. Aircraft would have red line entries in the F700 like: 'Not to be spun solo' or 'No intentional spins.' Entry would vary even on the straight ones. Sometimes there would be a lazy roll and then pitch down; other times there would be two vicious flicks and you were in

Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.

On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 10:29
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
In 1962 our Vampires were getting a bit twitter and bisted. Aircraft would have red line entries in the F700 like: 'Not to be spun solo' or 'No intentional spins..
I wonder if this accident had any bearing on that restriction?


On 23rd January 1961 the crew of two on this aircraft were undertaking a training flight over the Pennines when twenty minutes into the flight, and whilst flying 27,000 feet, the instructor entered a practice spin to the right. After four turns he attempted to pull out of the spin but was unable to do so, therefore further emergency action was taken without effect and the instructor warned the pupil that he would have to eject and the canopy jettisoned.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=153858

The pilots ejected without serious injury but a number of sheep were not so fortunate.

After spending some time reading the posts here yesterday I watched the entire BBC series released in 1986 about The Empire Test Pilots School. Written and Produced by Brian Johnson.

add Episode 3 has some interesting footage on spinning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9knSaT_4Tw

Last edited by roving; 29th Sep 2017 at 13:00. Reason: added
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 10:50
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Fareastdriver (#16),

Another "must" on a Vampire walkaround: inspect tail pipe for NAAFI meat pie left there by an erk to warm up (on a recently landed aircraft}, but had been called away before he could retrieve it.

Also heard that later, leaked fuel accumulated in bottom of engine panelling had led to fires in the air. Remedy: some form of collector tray which discharged into a rubber tube which was supposed to register with hole in bottom. You had to stick a finger up the Vampire's bum to make sure it did so.

Or so I read. Anybody corroborate this rather indelicate procedure ?
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 12:15
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Spin recovery was taught in the sim as part of the Tornado GR1/4 OCU, and is a mandatory trg requirement through the year in the sim too. Fairly hard to get into a spin, and recovery works well too.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 12:38
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Originally Posted by 30mRad View Post
...and recovery works well too.
Right up to the point where both engines flame out during your 20,000fpm descent towards terra firma.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 13:25
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Cannot remember exercise number for spinning in the Gnat so cannot check if we ever did the exercise, but sure I would remember with sheer stark terror if I had!
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