Jet spin training.
Thread Starter
Jet spin training.
Can any Gnat and Hawk QFIs tell me what spin training was/is conducted at Valley on these two types.
I am particularly interested in the recovery technique, taught by CFS, from fully developed spins on these swept wing types, and if there was any supplementary procedure such as inspin aileron.
When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques. (The JP with fuel in the tips had very similar spin characterstics, except for the ROD (!) to the Lightning and the JP standard recovery would , we were told by Boscombe, work on the Lightning, height permitting.
Is any spin refreshing done for Tornado pilots, or is a MB recovery. I assume FBW won't allow the Typhoon to spin!
I am particularly interested in the recovery technique, taught by CFS, from fully developed spins on these swept wing types, and if there was any supplementary procedure such as inspin aileron.
When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques. (The JP with fuel in the tips had very similar spin characterstics, except for the ROD (!) to the Lightning and the JP standard recovery would , we were told by Boscombe, work on the Lightning, height permitting.
Is any spin refreshing done for Tornado pilots, or is a MB recovery. I assume FBW won't allow the Typhoon to spin!
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 4th Oct 2017 at 17:00.
The only spin recovery training I recall on the Tornado was watching the video of the GR1 trials and revising in my head the spin-recovery drill from the FRCs.
The ac was not cleared to spin in normal service.
The ac was not cleared to spin in normal service.
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I did the Hawk Course in 1984 and did spin recovery. I seem to remember that it was just the case of centralising the controls and closing the throttle. It came out of the spin a turn later. Was that due to the Toblarones on the wing leading edge???
When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques
The F4 recovery certainly didn't have much commonality with that used on the JP so we got the guys to recite their recovery actions whilst we did the handling.....that sometimes had it's interesting moments since we had approval to use "out spin" aileron to get an oscillatory spin going...I think it was a bit of an eye opener for those who had trained on the JP and expected something quite benign.
I used to enjoy going off and doing them, and hopefully our victims had a bit of fun as well....with a bit of coaching I had more than one F4 navigator fly pretty much the whole detail apart from the rotational bit!!!!
Definitely no spin training on the Gnat - intentional spinning was strictly verboten
No spin training done on the Hawk at the TWU although I believe that spin training was done on the Hawk by 4FTS at Valley prior to students coming to the TWU. It was almost impossible to spin the Hawk accidentally as, the moment it departed, letting go of the controls effected an immediate recovery and you could immediately get back to the business of trying to shoot down your opponent. (what else would you be doing to go incipient?)
No spin training done on the Hawk at the TWU although I believe that spin training was done on the Hawk by 4FTS at Valley prior to students coming to the TWU. It was almost impossible to spin the Hawk accidentally as, the moment it departed, letting go of the controls effected an immediate recovery and you could immediately get back to the business of trying to shoot down your opponent. (what else would you be doing to go incipient?)
On the Gnat, we were briefed a form of recovery rather than having any incipient spinning demo.
There were 2 yaw dolls' eyes, but no turn and slip (or turn co-ordinator
)
I think it went something like:
'Boot the black' (Rudder towards the black doll's eye)
'Punch the white' (Control column towards the white doll's eye)
'Set 6° nose-up' (Move control column to achieve 6° nose-up on the tailplane incidence gauge)
'Leave the throttle where it is'
'Wait...and hope!'
'When the music stops, recover from the dive'
'If it hasn't recovered by the briefed height, punch out immediately'
Forgiving little beast providing it wasn't provoked - centralising and waiting was often sufficient. As it was when I once saw more AoA than IAS in an F-4...
I only spun in the Hawk T1 once during my refresher course - it was a very 'canned' exercise with a choreographed entry procedure and was rather a waste of time. "Unload for control" was much simpler!
There were 2 yaw dolls' eyes, but no turn and slip (or turn co-ordinator
)I think it went something like:
'Boot the black' (Rudder towards the black doll's eye)
'Punch the white' (Control column towards the white doll's eye)
'Set 6° nose-up' (Move control column to achieve 6° nose-up on the tailplane incidence gauge)
'Leave the throttle where it is'
'Wait...and hope!'
'When the music stops, recover from the dive'
'If it hasn't recovered by the briefed height, punch out immediately'
Forgiving little beast providing it wasn't provoked - centralising and waiting was often sufficient. As it was when I once saw more AoA than IAS in an F-4...
I only spun in the Hawk T1 once during my refresher course - it was a very 'canned' exercise with a choreographed entry procedure and was rather a waste of time. "Unload for control" was much simpler!
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Sep 2017 at 19:36.
In the Gnat do I recall a white mark against which to put the 'stick' to get ailerons neutral? then having 'kicked the black' I seem to remember tail to 6 and wait. I had an incident of uncommanded rapid roll at low speed where the 'GIB' punching out effected a fairly rapid recovery. Not in the FRC's but it worked.
JF can elaborate but we were a bit cautious about the value of 'spinex' in the Harrier force, because having centralised and possibly shut down a surging motor the recovery action was stick back to un-mask the rudder. I don't recall a 'bona jet' i.e GR ever getting into a full spin by accident, indeed I think that it would only 'spin' if the donk was shut down.
On the Tornado we were supposed to do counterintuitive stuff with the stick to keep us busy. After watching the altitude used on the spin trial videos I didn't anticipate doing much. It was often quipped that it was a 2-stage drill - put the SPILS switch into a less incriminating position for the accident photos before leaving.
That said, the Tornado spin was rather pedestrian compared to the Jaguar.
Having done a bit of spinning in my time and, remembering the different recovery drills of the types, it is interesting to hark back to the recent thread where the limited amount of aircraft handling in today's flying training was discussed. 
OAP
OAP
In 1962 our Vampires were getting a bit twitter and bisted. Aircraft would have red line entries in the F700 like: 'Not to be spun solo' or 'No intentional spins.' Entry would vary even on the straight ones. Sometimes there would be a lazy roll and then pitch down; other times there would be two vicious flicks and you were in
Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.
On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.
Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.
On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.
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On 23rd January 1961 the crew of two on this aircraft were undertaking a training flight over the Pennines when twenty minutes into the flight, and whilst flying 27,000 feet, the instructor entered a practice spin to the right. After four turns he attempted to pull out of the spin but was unable to do so, therefore further emergency action was taken without effect and the instructor warned the pupil that he would have to eject and the canopy jettisoned.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=153858
The pilots ejected without serious injury but a number of sheep were not so fortunate.
After spending some time reading the posts here yesterday I watched the entire BBC series released in 1986 about The Empire Test Pilots School. Written and Produced by Brian Johnson.
add Episode 3 has some interesting footage on spinning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9knSaT_4Tw
Last edited by roving; 29th Sep 2017 at 13:00. Reason: added
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Fareastdriver (#16),
Another "must" on a Vampire walkaround: inspect tail pipe for NAAFI meat pie left there by an erk to warm up (on a recently landed aircraft}, but had been called away before he could retrieve it.
Also heard that later, leaked fuel accumulated in bottom of engine panelling had led to fires in the air. Remedy: some form of collector tray which discharged into a rubber tube which was supposed to register with hole in bottom. You had to stick a finger up the Vampire's bum to make sure it did so.
Or so I read. Anybody corroborate this rather indelicate procedure ?
Another "must" on a Vampire walkaround: inspect tail pipe for NAAFI meat pie left there by an erk to warm up (on a recently landed aircraft}, but had been called away before he could retrieve it.
Also heard that later, leaked fuel accumulated in bottom of engine panelling had led to fires in the air. Remedy: some form of collector tray which discharged into a rubber tube which was supposed to register with hole in bottom. You had to stick a finger up the Vampire's bum to make sure it did so.
Or so I read. Anybody corroborate this rather indelicate procedure ?
Spin recovery was taught in the sim as part of the Tornado GR1/4 OCU, and is a mandatory trg requirement through the year in the sim too. Fairly hard to get into a spin, and recovery works well too.
IIRC, Reg Stock, a production tp at Warton, was tasked to spin a Strikemaster with one tip tank full and the other empty. In his report, he wrote that the aircraft recovered satisfactorily, after some 17 turns.......