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Jet spin training.

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Jet spin training.

Old 2nd Oct 2017, 12:18
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,118
30,000 was quite high enough for me, thank you. You need pressure breathing above that.

I once took off from Oakington at around midnight on a beautiful moonlit night. Controlled Airspace stopped at about 27,000 ft. in those days so I climbed up to 30 and orbited over central London. You could see Birmingham one way and over the darkness of the Channel I think I saw the lights of Paris.

Later on in life we did the last radar bombing run before the bombing task was removed from our tanker squadron. The target was King's Cross station which was one of the radar targets. Again a beautiful moonlit night and at 40 you could see a lot more.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:49
  #42 (permalink)  
R4H
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 61
Painted blob

Re spin recovery -
Gnat, as already mentioned there were 2 doll eyes and during spin it could be quite oscilliatory and difficult to see exactly what was going on so kick the black i.e. rudder and punch the white i.e. aileron. There was also a tiny desyn indicator on the panel showing aileron neutral position so once once recovery happening, ailerons neutral on the indicator.
Hunter, no such sophistication but ailerons neutral important during unload and as stick top was slightly canted there was a white blob on the stick top covers and another somewhere on the instrument panel. Line them up for aileron neutral. Also handy if just departing and quickly needing to centralise everything.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 23:38
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 20
Spinexes

CFS spinex visits 1986 to F4 , Lightning and Jag stations. I concur that the aim was to remind FJ pilots of spin/departure symptoms and how disorientating a spin can be especially if it went oscillitory. Achieved that by judicious use of in spin aileron (not supposed to but much more useful for the exercise) and noting the exchange of energy between the gyros (wing vs fuselage B over A ratios anyone?). pilots supposed to recite their aircraft spin recovery actions whilst we would try to facilitate the recovery to coincide with their final correct action. Last exercise was to get them to fly the entry, maintain the spin whilst reciting (but not doing!) their aircraft recovery drill. As said earlier this could produce some very interesting spins if they could not stop themselves from doing their own thing! Best performers in the cockpit?F4 navs..word perfect. Gnat as student in mid 70s, only did slow downs, no slip, unload and power out; Hunter, no spinning even demoed but fro personal experience it handled like a big JP loads of warning buffet, centralising always got things on track. Jag? Departed it once at LL, hard roll towards the bounce and pulled at same time, an absolute no no; aircraft calmly rolled back left to upright whilst I had nearly full right stick/spoiler...centralised [email protected]#dy fast and flew SandL for 30 secs to calm down. Used to demo spin entry in JP to FJ crews by inducing wing drop stall then trying to pick up down going wing with aileron. Although quite slow you could see the roll one way stick the other symptom of incipient departure. ‘Only second to Live’ by Duncan Hadley is an excellent book about the early days of flying and the discovery of spin recovery actions (partly by accident) and the subsequent development of theory and instruction in this part of the envelope.
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Old 3rd Oct 2017, 05:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the ORP
Posts: 94
The Lightning spin recovery was fine, normal JP actions. BAC (as they were then) did the trials, some 40 plus spins I believe and only had one iffy recovery when opposite rudder wasn't fully applied. Classic r/t:-

Red 2 are you spinning?
Affirmative, out now, engaged

The main problem was the pitot tube could bend and lay across the intake.
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Old 3rd Oct 2017, 17:05
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 26
I was late enough in the life of the aircraft to be "taught" to spin the Lightning. The slow-speed handling check brief went along the lines of: "of course, we're not allowed to spin the ac intentionally; but, if it does, you'll see that it's just a big JP." Which, of course, it was. Didn't stop a mate of mine being killed, though.

My memory of the CFS spin rides was that it was much better to get a JP5 than a JP3 (twenty-ish minutes to get to height?) and that what felt like incipient spinning to the QFI was pretty much the normal sensation around the final turn! I knew what he was trying to show me, but it would have definitely helped him to have had a go in a T5 first - no doubt he'd have enjoyed that - to understand the difference between buffet and "buffet".

Good job we never had an AOA gauge...
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Old 4th Oct 2017, 13:37
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Barnes, London
Posts: 71
May I refer the Great and the Good to the following article written by an old and cherished friend Jerry Lee. BAE Test Pilot/Chief Test Pilot 1982-1985.Entitled " Close to the Edge"
The article is copyright and appeared in Jets Winter 2000

Certainly it will answer some of the more fanciful explanations and is 'recoverable' by
web search.
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Old 4th Oct 2017, 14:44
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 72
Posts: 1,938
Close to the Edge Jerry Lee JETS Winter 2000
"There is nothing like a spinning trial for creating adrenalin...."
Close to the edge
F-35 Flight Test Intentional Departure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWji8AcOYGA


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Oct 2017 at 14:55.
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Old 6th Oct 2017, 10:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Frozen North
Posts: 10
Jaguar Spinning Trials

Have any of you watched Jerry Lee's Jaguar Spinning Trials film?
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 13:02
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 690
With the Hunter, more than 1/4 outspin aileron would prevent recovery. At ETPS we would fly an erect spin then apply full outspin aileron. This would be maintained as recovery rudder then full forward stick were applied. Nothing happened so the outspin aileron was reduced progressively to 3/4 then 1/2 then 1/4 at which point it normally recovered. Occasionally you had to return to neutral aileron for recovery. However, a little inspin did give a quicker recovery and Bill Bedford used this in his spinning displays.

I had a Tornado GR1 (actually an IDS prototype, P14) spin during a rapid rolling trial. It had 2 x 1500l tanks inboard, bare outboard pylons and 5 x BL755 underfuselage. It was in 25CR wing, SPILS off. The test point was an 18AOA turn then full lateral stick for a 180 deg bank angle change then a full lateral stick reversal for a further 180 deg bank change. It rolled very slowly during the first roll input then essentially stopped rolling when I made the lateral reversal. I centralised the stick but it departed at 21 000 ft and went from 340 KCAS into a fully developed spin in less than 2 seconds. It was the most violent departure that I have ever seen. I closed the throttles, applied full back stick and I believed that we were spinning left so applied full left stick simultaneously. It continued spinning steadily for many turns! The briefed ejection height was 10 000 ft AGL and we were over the sea. As we reached 10 000 ft the AOA came back on scale and the HUD airspeed changed from 2 digits to 3 (I was too disorientated to read numbers at that stage). At 8000 ft the airspeed was still only 130 KCAS due to the drag. I elected to override the recommended procedure for waiting until 200 KCAS before recovering from the dive and selected manoeuvre flap and slat, rolled wings level and pulled out of the dive. We bottomed at 3000 ft with 2 good engines, a few CSAS first failures and all nav systems dead. Looking at the traces the next day, we had been spinning right so I actually had applied full outspin rather than full inspin lateral stick - and it still recovered (eventually). An interesting test point which generated a good departure boundary identification to establish what the SPILS OFF rapid rolling limit should be!
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 13:52
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,846
Well bugger me with a fish fork, you certainly earned your flying pay in that trial, mate!

We bottomed at 3000 ft with 2 good engines, a few CSAS first failures and all nav systems dead.
I imagine that the food-powered nav system in the rear seat also had some serviceability issues after that little ride?
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 14:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 690
It was my nav's first trip in a GR1/IDS; he was mainly an F3 man but for flying qualities trials it made little difference. He only said 2 things throughout: "Eleven Thousand" and, when we were half way through the pull out, "Yeeeee Haaaaaah!". I have flown several other rapid rolling trials with him and he was always very comfortable with being thrown around like that.

We drank lots of very fine red wine that night atop of one of Rome's seven hills.
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