Jet spin training.
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,983
Likes: 180
From: Australia OZ
In 1962 our Vampires were getting a bit twitter and bisted. Aircraft would have red line entries in the F700 like: 'Not to be spun solo' or 'No intentional spins.' Entry would vary even on the straight ones. Sometimes there would be a lazy roll and then pitch down; other times there would be two vicious flicks and you were in
Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.
On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.
Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.
On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.
Intentional Spinning in A4G Skyhawk forbidden but many pages in NATOPS explain about recovery techniques from such activities if required. 'Luckily' spin training was undertaken in the radial prop Winjeel and as I recall could be quite a violent experience - depending on entry conditions but relatively easy recovery.
Early on the Macchi MB326H was spinnable in all modes until the RAAF found that inverted spins were problematic - then banned. However they failed to inform the RAN FAA so we lost one (both pilots ejected safely) from an unrecoverable inverted spin demo with the front seat student on first fam flight. As I recall (having been converted to them at QFI Heaven East Sale) all the spins were nice and recovery easy enough.
Being one of the last Sea Venom DELMAR target towing pilots it was commonplace to do preflight accompanied by the AEO (Air Engineer Officer) explaining why it was OK to have this part cracked or bent or not lined up with other parts with the booms particularly out of alignment due to drag from DELMAR target when streamed. Geez they were crappy Venoms.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th September 2017 at 20:47.
Joined: Jun 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 957
Likes: 786
From: 350/3 Compton
I could well be mistaken but... I seem to recall during a phase brief being shown the HUD video of a GR in an ACMI range. The story went that the pilot in question hadn't managed to claim any kills for the whole sortie so on the final 1 vs 1 vs 1 Mercedes split he got sight of one of the other jets and tried just a little too hard to pull the nose round and the jet departed. The HUD video cut out as the g mounted but what was recorded looked pretty violent.
Slapped the nozzles aft and saw the nadir star in the middle of the HUD at 3000'. (SHAR takes 5000' to recover from the vertical!!) Remembered Bartoonski's advice when I started displaying the jet and selected the hover stop, applied full power and nursed the nose up at 8 units AoA. Recovered at 1500' and knocked it off!! Thanks Paul!
Caught it all on film, as I was about to take a shot! Swing the lamp.
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,983
Likes: 180
From: Australia OZ
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,158
Likes: 49
From: UK
I seem to remember that the data for dirty or asymmetric configurations was non-existent. Given some of the weird external stores configurations we had I am sure that any actual spin would be unique!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
From: Hants
There was a Vulcan that entered a spin on a low speed approach demo into Boscombe Down in the early 1960's. They managed to recover once but it entered a spin in the opposite direction. From memory they deployed the tail brake chute but it broke away. Both pilots (one a Hawker Siddeley test pilot and the other RAF) ejected and survived. The rear crew did not. The aircraft crashed near Andover.
ACW
ACW
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
As a student, and QFI, on the Hawk spinning was part of the syllabus.....I seem to recall some instability in the spin, and one of the recovery criteria was excessive side forces, suggesting as others allude to that it was reluctant to spin anyway. Centralising always worked.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Likes: 3
From: Too close to the M6
Gnat Spinning
Early in the Gnat's life it was cleared for spinning, in fact it was cleared for solo spinning by more experienced students. All went well until certain QFI allowed his student to mishandle the aircraft to such an extent that they departed. QFI bravely took control and carried out the JP spin recovery actions. Result: scratch one Gnat and no more Gnat spinning.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: Lon UK
A recent offering on spin testing. This on the Super Hornet. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLxK3maZqiA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLxK3maZqiA
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
The JP spin recovery visits to Lightning Sqns were indeed useful. I spun the Lightning twice and immediately put the JP spin technique to use. Out in 2 turns with only about 4000 ft height loss. Not so sure if the procedure would work so well for F4, Tornado etc as the recovery techniques were very different.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 593
Likes: 106
From: London
Thank you for replies, chaps. Most interesting reading.
Particularly pleased that our JP spin training saved at least one Lightning.
Not sure the F4 was recoverable, we understood at the time it went flat and was unrecoverable, although drag chute could possibly help.
Tales of the Vampire brought back a few memories. On my first spin in the T11 I was told to look at the booms flexing in the RV mirror. Never did again !
Thank you all, again.
Particularly pleased that our JP spin training saved at least one Lightning.
Not sure the F4 was recoverable, we understood at the time it went flat and was unrecoverable, although drag chute could possibly help.
Tales of the Vampire brought back a few memories. On my first spin in the T11 I was told to look at the booms flexing in the RV mirror. Never did again !
Thank you all, again.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
As I recall it initial actions (F4 K and Ms) were "unload, mil, bag, RAT" ...if that didn't solve it it was stick full forward and full in spin stick.....
In more mundane circumstances Going around again from the runway (especially into the radar pattern) having dumped the chute almost always resulted in some wag on the "other" squadron seeing the second landing and circulating a rumour that somebody had obviously almost spun in.......
Joined: Jul 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 2,983
Likes: 180
From: Australia OZ
Dual Trainer VAMPIRES Mk35 & 35A from AAP 953 (PDF of spin recovery actions below)
Section 3, Chapter 1, Limitations - Prohibited Manoeuvres (A/L 1-March, 1962)
Section 3, Chapter 1, Limitations - Prohibited Manoeuvres (A/L 1-March, 1962)
"9. The aircraft is prohibited from performing the following manoeuvres:-
(a) Acrobatics when external stores are being carried.
(b) Spinning.
(c) Bunts.
(d) Stall turns.
(c) Flick manoeuvres.
(e) Above 20,000 feet - all acrobatics in the looping plane."
(a) Acrobatics when external stores are being carried.
(b) Spinning.
(c) Bunts.
(d) Stall turns.
(c) Flick manoeuvres.
(e) Above 20,000 feet - all acrobatics in the looping plane."
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 19
Likes: 5
From: Home
In the early 70s at CFS Rissy we used to provide spin famil training to the CFS Gnat squadron (4 Sqn?), Valley QFIs and at times to FJ squadrons (Lightings I recall). Reading the earlier posts it seems spin famil training to FJ squadrons has always been a bit ad hoc. Training we provided was never programmed well ahead - just was ad hoc when we were around. I remember there wasn't much point in teaching the JP recovery as a technique for the aircraft the victim was flying since that varied depending on the type. The main value was in experiencing uncontrolled flight. The 'canned' JP spin entry and recovery was flown but the main value I found was spinning from the vertical which was part of the normal QFI instructional sequence such as a mis-handled stall turn. For these exercise I would use an entry just past the vertical to ensure the aircraft would flop over the top then apply full pro-spin controls at about 100 knots. The result was always a mix of aerodynamic & inertial gyrations as the aircraft lost upward momentum and headed downhill. Without exception it gained a s**t or f**k verbal reaction. Some swore it must be an inverted spin but with the IAS still below 100 knots it was just ballistic tumbling until it entered an upright spin as the speed increased with full pro-spin controls still held firmly in place. The training benefit for the FJ pilot was experiencing the uncontrolled flight and subsequent spin rather than the JP recovery.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 546
Likes: 131
From: London
The F4 was reasonably predictable when it departed (and I did it too often!) - if you were quick enough to unload it, the recovery was rapid, especially in roll. The spin recovery used no rudder but full in-spin aileron, and there was the drag bag too. Flat spin was not recoverable.
ISTR in the those days of STC just culture (you screw up, you're screwed) a high AOA briefing that ended with: "And if you are still spinning at 10,000 ft, eject and take your posting like a man..."
I also enjoyed teaching JP spinning to the Iraqis. OK, enjoyed is probably the wrong word. By the time they had got the 2 second pause out of the way with the laboured verbalising of 'one thousand, er, er, two thousand', the full opposite rudder had quite often turned into full pro-spin control as the direction had reversed. This was usually followed by some noises of confusion followed by QFI resuming control. Happy days.
ISTR in the those days of STC just culture (you screw up, you're screwed) a high AOA briefing that ended with: "And if you are still spinning at 10,000 ft, eject and take your posting like a man..."
I also enjoyed teaching JP spinning to the Iraqis. OK, enjoyed is probably the wrong word. By the time they had got the 2 second pause out of the way with the laboured verbalising of 'one thousand, er, er, two thousand', the full opposite rudder had quite often turned into full pro-spin control as the direction had reversed. This was usually followed by some noises of confusion followed by QFI resuming control. Happy days.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,174
Likes: 7
From: UK
(e) Above 20,000 feet - all acrobatics in the looping plane."
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,092
Likes: 47
I think the main object was ....
Never had rear view mirrors in the Sea Vampire or Sea Venom.
We were still spinning the Sea Venom in late 1969. I always believed the reason the spinning clearance had not been withdrawn was because the Admiralty didn't realise we had any left in service.
LFH
........................................
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,174
Likes: 7
From: UK
30,000 was quite high enough for me, thank you. You need pressure breathing above that.
I once took off from Oakington at around midnight on a beautiful moonlit night. Controlled Airspace stopped at about 27,000 ft. in those days so I climbed up to 30 and orbited over central London. You could see Birmingham one way and over the darkness of the Channel I think I saw the lights of Paris.
Later on in life we did the last radar bombing run before the bombing task was removed from our tanker squadron. The target was King's Cross station which was one of the radar targets. Again a beautiful moonlit night and at 40 you could see a lot more.
I once took off from Oakington at around midnight on a beautiful moonlit night. Controlled Airspace stopped at about 27,000 ft. in those days so I climbed up to 30 and orbited over central London. You could see Birmingham one way and over the darkness of the Channel I think I saw the lights of Paris.
Later on in life we did the last radar bombing run before the bombing task was removed from our tanker squadron. The target was King's Cross station which was one of the radar targets. Again a beautiful moonlit night and at 40 you could see a lot more.