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FILLING THE RANKS

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Old 8th Sep 2017, 09:46
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I was working down Pompey way yesterday and was talking to a lad who had left the Andrew as a Chief Tiff two days before at the age of 36. Off to work for a local defence company with an instant payrise of 45%. Asked if he thought he would miss life in a blue suit he said he would miss his oppos but likened service today to working for the local council. Too many bosses, not enough troops, budget constraints, petty bureaucracy, empire building. Waterfront Manning came in for particular criticism.

Takes a long time to replace a Chief Tiffs experience.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 11:43
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CPO (equivalent to Flight Sergeant ) by the age of 36.
Must have quick promotion in the Navy.
Makes me wonder what's the incentive to be certain trades in the RAF?
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 12:55
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The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 13:37
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Originally Posted by Blacksheep
The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]
Blacksheep. We no longer get accelerated time promotion.
Unless you're air traffic control or a nurse.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 13:52
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Originally Posted by Blacksheep
The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]
I have had this discussion before over promotion speed but with the technical branches of the Army. I don't know about the RN but the Army speed up the ladder was dictated by most of them having to leave at age 40. This meant that to give the high flyers chance to get to WO1 by retirement they were promoted quicker than the RAF who, barring acts of god, could stay until they were 55.

As a normal graduate, I passed out from Locking as an 18 year old J/T, Cpl. at 21, SGT. at 25 and Chf/Tech. at 30. Theoretically this gave me 7 years to "get my crown", I didn't, but there were some that did. There were a handful of brainy ones who passed out as 18 year old Cpl.s and were Chf/Tech.s at 27 and easily made Flt/Sgt by their mid 30s.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 14:15
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The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.
As I remember it. It wasn't unusual to see PO Tiffys without a good conduct badge (four years of undiscovered crime) and Chief Tiffys well below 30 years of age. Someone once suggested that, if they had one, their specialist badge should incorporate a hammock. Can't think why.

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Old 8th Sep 2017, 15:45
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Originally Posted by superplum
Shouldn't that be "senior Aircrew, and Engineers who can do big sums,"?

Give yourself a "qss". Well done.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 16:19
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The 'Oxford comma' is incorrect with only 2 items conjoined.

To avoid ambiguity, if the desired sentence needs to indicate that it is only engineers who can 'do big sums', although both aircrew and engineers are senior, I would recommend 'Senior engineers, who can do big sums, and senior aircrew'. In this form, the commas are used in parenthesis, so the comma appearing before 'and' is probably acceptable.

PS - I never did idiot scribblers' school! Nor the 'C' exam, for that matter!
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 16:35
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Beags. I read the sentence as implying " Senior Aircrew, and those Engineers who can do big sums"

But having been neither........
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 18:36
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Originally Posted by Crromwellman
Lyneham Lad - All well and good to highlight the conditions today - but how was Service life (all ranks) in for example, the mid-1930s (budget constraint-wise, reluctance to spend on new programmes etc etc) as a comparison?

All well and good to suggest comparison but what about comparing where it all led to? A major conflict with totally unprepared Armed Forces thet took nearly three years to bring up to speed - we won't have the time if it happens again
Which was the aim of my post - i.e. what followed the 1930's hollowing out of the Services.
(My post underlined for clarity).
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 19:05
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Originally Posted by Bigbux
Perhaps we should recruit more Chinese personnel. They don't seem to have a problem.
That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/24/too-fat-for-pla.php

Training Risky,

I think you're right and it's a sense I've had for a while now of a deliberate attempt to shift the demographic of all the Services from experienced wafighters to young, cheap and disposable labourers in uniform - think a military version of Primark (if my young teen cousin's description of Primark is accurate I should add!). So not only numerically smaller but also shallower in terms of experience, but crucially for the Treasury (as its their opinion that matters) cheaper in terms of both pay and pensions. Their ability to do more than one turn of a handle or grow that experience in to a credible war fighting capability is a happy coincidence should it occur.

(Other than that, I'm doing fine, seemed to have slipped through the net and am still rolling my eyes at some of the questionable decisions but it keeps me from having to work for a living!)

Edited to add now I've read to the bottom of the thread - Rigga & CharlieGolf, you have definitely highlighted a big part of the problem. We don't join the Forces to chase the big money, so if you take away the other aspects that attract people in the first place of course they will walk. And this goes exactly to my point of recruiting being only part of the solution if politicians want a capable and competent military, capable of winning wars at short notice when they screw up.

Last edited by Melchett01; 8th Sep 2017 at 19:21.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 08:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BEagle
The 'Oxford comma' is incorrect with only 2 items conjoined.

To avoid ambiguity, if the desired sentence needs to indicate that it is only engineers who can 'do big sums', although both aircrew and engineers are senior, I would recommend 'Senior engineers, who can do big sums, and senior aircrew'. In this form, the commas are used in parenthesis, so the comma appearing before 'and' is probably acceptable.

PS - I never did idiot scribblers' school! Nor the 'C' exam, for that matter!
Basic error there,, engineers never come before aircrew. I had a "qss" - I think it's somewhere in the garages.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 09:38
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Yes they do..

Did not Lord T set up the technical training with the start of the brat scheme, before training for drivers (airframe)!🔧
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 09:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blacksheep
The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.
In the 1950's we had RN guys on courses at Yatesbury, they were technically the equivalent of a J/T, but were P.O.'s and lived in the Sgt's Mess.

The RAF has always under appreciated its technical staff, even though it is very dependent upon them.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 12:47
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Melchett01;9886297]That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
Young Chinese are being rejected by army because they're too fat, masturbate excessively: Shanghaiist

Only 8%?

Now I am worried. What is excessive? Is it too late to stop?

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 18:34
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[quote=langleybaston;9886878]
Originally Posted by Melchett01
That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
Young Chinese are being rejected by army because they're too fat, masturbate excessively: Shanghaiist

Only 8%?

Now I am worried. What is excessive? Is it too late to stop?

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.
I know. I shudder to think what the Chinese recruiters would think if they looked over here - I'm sure some units do it competitively.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 18:41
  #37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by langleybaston

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.
Or that other statistic concerning wash basins.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 19:00
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Or that other statistic concerning wash basins.
There are no stats there PN, just hard fact. There are those that have used the basin and there are those that have lied about it!
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Old 10th Sep 2017, 17:57
  #39 (permalink)  
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Remember, in the 30s, and 60s, you got 3 square a day, free food and accommodation, clothes etc all probably better than civvies and 4/6 weeks leave against 2 and a 6 day week.

For an officer in the 60s you had a barman, in a quarter too, and quarters were often new or less than 30 years old. An officer's quarter was better than the semi I grew up in. The aircraft I flew in were all new. Venerable types such as Varsity and Meteor were less than 10, the Hastings and Anson the oldestc at under 20. We had a future.
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Old 10th Sep 2017, 19:16
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Blimey Pontius ,You had a barman-I only shared a batman!
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