Mil Pilot - Nature or Nurture?
Perhaps the course loading was deliberate, taking into account the OASC results.....
I'm with Gums. Having spent two tours instructing, I'm convinced the naturals will usually get through. The guys that have to work at it? Well - hard work will probably get them through, but it's hard! And a number will inevitably fall by the wayside.
As the years have progressed I've become a bit more pragmatic about this, and funnily enough it was always the most oft asked question by students from BFT all the way up to an OCU.
There's a big part of me that took the natural argument, it was after all how I think I got through. On reflection though there were plenty of naturals chopped along the way as well, many as it happened for seemingly solvable problems.
I'm firmly of the opinion that hardwork and determination had and has as a much a place as does natural ability, Lady Luck also played her part as well, I know in my case that the lovely lady was an important component part of my career.
There's a big part of me that took the natural argument, it was after all how I think I got through. On reflection though there were plenty of naturals chopped along the way as well, many as it happened for seemingly solvable problems.
I'm firmly of the opinion that hardwork and determination had and has as a much a place as does natural ability, Lady Luck also played her part as well, I know in my case that the lovely lady was an important component part of my career.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MM/serf etc, there was also a tendency to post the slower learners to less demanding types to consolidate. V-Force copilot was one where those making the grade got a captaincy or, later, CFS. Others got flight sim slots, FAC, ops, etc until their option points. I know a Tornado pilot who had a prior tour on Dominies or navs sent to 360.
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Same with ATCO. The 'lesser brethren' were posted to low intensity/complexity units (our grading system) to consolidate, find their feet and hopefully move on and up. Others went to more intense/complex units, where they would be able to cope as an ab-initio ATCO. Some even moved straight on to Area Radar training, although at that time it may have been partly a manning requirement!
The various air/ground systems were quite sensible. There's no point in putting people out of their depth, and failing, after time/effort/expense has been committed to training them.
The various air/ground systems were quite sensible. There's no point in putting people out of their depth, and failing, after time/effort/expense has been committed to training them.
In many more years of training than I care to count I have met a few, very few, natural, gifted and talented individuals. They were outstanding in their ability to manipulate an aircraft and make it do exactly what they wanted it to do. The rest had to work hard to understand why they weren't so gifted, once that hurdle was overcome teaching them became much easier.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In many more years of training than I care to count I have met a few, very few, natural, gifted and talented individuals. They were outstanding in their ability to manipulate an aircraft and make it do exactly what they wanted it to do. The rest had to work hard to understand why they weren't so gifted, once that hurdle was overcome teaching them became much easier.
Now I made up the figures but they were not far off the truth. They seem to be borne out by the remarks above. I can think of only 4 pilots that I flew with in the nature group and only crewed up with one of them. I can think of many in the latter group.
*I could name names but only in a PM
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I can remember a similar article concerning fighter pilot aces and the difficulty in picking out the wolves from the sheep during training.
No matter what their ability to fly, many of the best natural pilots did not have "it" when it came to combat, and some of those who were not as well regarded turned out to be the most savage wolves. It was just that nobody could seem to work out a way to predict which would which.
No matter what their ability to fly, many of the best natural pilots did not have "it" when it came to combat, and some of those who were not as well regarded turned out to be the most savage wolves. It was just that nobody could seem to work out a way to predict which would which.
Interesting point ORAC, my grandfather flew hurricanes in the battle France and later on after recovering from his wounds went on to fly typhoons and eventually tempests, he always said the same thing as well.
His favourite story, if memory serves correctly, revolved around either an NZ or Oz pilot who displayed all the aptitude of your average Vicky Pollard, he was however when in sight of the enemy utter fearless and ruthless and was a dead shot when it came to deflection shooting, I think I'm right that he was shot down by ground fire during an intruder mission and ended up making it to Switzerland and marrying a local maiden!
His favourite story, if memory serves correctly, revolved around either an NZ or Oz pilot who displayed all the aptitude of your average Vicky Pollard, he was however when in sight of the enemy utter fearless and ruthless and was a dead shot when it came to deflection shooting, I think I'm right that he was shot down by ground fire during an intruder mission and ended up making it to Switzerland and marrying a local maiden!
Another nav's point of view......
I was deselected very early on on thanks to a crippling lack of coordination and inability to learn at the rate required. You only need to watch me on a sports field or court to realise! So nature seemed to play a big part in that. However, I then did well through nav training, nature had given me the right tools for that.
Interestingly, I did my second tour at 6FTS where shortly after I had got my B1 I had a conversation with OCANS who told us that HQ RAFSC had decided that in future all baby navs would come from the pilot training system failures to save money on training (ie already done most of the groundschool and some visual nav and would be therefore ahead of the game). By this time most navs were bound for a FJ or Kinloss. After a bit of dragging through records we produced some stats that this was counter intuitive, if a guy was chopped after spin aeros (ie he could fly but not operate the aircraft) he would get a bit further in the nav training but would ultimately fail as he couldn't crack the high tempo 'mind games'. A guy off the street who had passed the Nav side of OASC had a much better chance as did the uncoordinated duffers like me.
So ultimately, with the Tornado era you had to have two lots of nature to crack it as a FJ pilot, plus a good deal of hard work unless you were one of the very lucky ones.
I was deselected very early on on thanks to a crippling lack of coordination and inability to learn at the rate required. You only need to watch me on a sports field or court to realise! So nature seemed to play a big part in that. However, I then did well through nav training, nature had given me the right tools for that.
Interestingly, I did my second tour at 6FTS where shortly after I had got my B1 I had a conversation with OCANS who told us that HQ RAFSC had decided that in future all baby navs would come from the pilot training system failures to save money on training (ie already done most of the groundschool and some visual nav and would be therefore ahead of the game). By this time most navs were bound for a FJ or Kinloss. After a bit of dragging through records we produced some stats that this was counter intuitive, if a guy was chopped after spin aeros (ie he could fly but not operate the aircraft) he would get a bit further in the nav training but would ultimately fail as he couldn't crack the high tempo 'mind games'. A guy off the street who had passed the Nav side of OASC had a much better chance as did the uncoordinated duffers like me.
So ultimately, with the Tornado era you had to have two lots of nature to crack it as a FJ pilot, plus a good deal of hard work unless you were one of the very lucky ones.
Salute!
I think Pointius underestimates the number of naturals, but mainly in the advanced programs. Seems USAF and RAF cull the fast movers and the rest go to less demanding systems, and not single seat.
I only taught real basic stuff to the Vee, and the ones we got in the Dragonfly had gone thru two stages to get to us. Their nurtured ones went to FAC planes and Gooney Birds. I figure we only had about 20% nurtured. We also trained the first USAF Reserve unit and they came from C-119's!!! GASP! About half were nurtured, but the only real difficult thing in the Dragonlfly was helping them learn to do everything solo, with no help, and flying formation.
In my A-7 and F-16 years I only saw maybe 20% nurtured. But those folks usually had great situation awareness, were fast learners of the avionics and could navigate. They would not become Thunderbirds yet still be effective in combat. Biggest challenge for us was the two-seat background/mentality of many Double Ugly pilots.
I was something like those that ORAC references as far as some aspects of the mission. I was definitely a natural and soloed at age 16 after about 4 hops in taildraggers, then min time in the T-37 and soloed at minimum legal mission count. However, I sucked at A2A when I got to the Viper. I had about 3400 hours, of which 2400 was in mudbeaters ( my three tours to SEA, then two IP tours). Nevertherless, I kicked ass in A2G and low level nav. I qualified without the computer in strafe and divebomb.
As others opine, attitude and smarts can make up a lot for average "hands". Nevertheless, in the fast movers one will encounter some hairy situations from time to time and the good reflexes and "touch" will save the day. See the pic of my LEF on the bio. Then there was the flameout landing with battle damage back in 1968.
Gums opines...
I think Pointius underestimates the number of naturals, but mainly in the advanced programs. Seems USAF and RAF cull the fast movers and the rest go to less demanding systems, and not single seat.
I only taught real basic stuff to the Vee, and the ones we got in the Dragonfly had gone thru two stages to get to us. Their nurtured ones went to FAC planes and Gooney Birds. I figure we only had about 20% nurtured. We also trained the first USAF Reserve unit and they came from C-119's!!! GASP! About half were nurtured, but the only real difficult thing in the Dragonlfly was helping them learn to do everything solo, with no help, and flying formation.
In my A-7 and F-16 years I only saw maybe 20% nurtured. But those folks usually had great situation awareness, were fast learners of the avionics and could navigate. They would not become Thunderbirds yet still be effective in combat. Biggest challenge for us was the two-seat background/mentality of many Double Ugly pilots.
I was something like those that ORAC references as far as some aspects of the mission. I was definitely a natural and soloed at age 16 after about 4 hops in taildraggers, then min time in the T-37 and soloed at minimum legal mission count. However, I sucked at A2A when I got to the Viper. I had about 3400 hours, of which 2400 was in mudbeaters ( my three tours to SEA, then two IP tours). Nevertherless, I kicked ass in A2G and low level nav. I qualified without the computer in strafe and divebomb.
As others opine, attitude and smarts can make up a lot for average "hands". Nevertheless, in the fast movers one will encounter some hairy situations from time to time and the good reflexes and "touch" will save the day. See the pic of my LEF on the bio. Then there was the flameout landing with battle damage back in 1968.
Gums opines...
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Pontius N (#19),
At Shawbury mainy moons ago mentored a Direct-Entry ATCO (name forgotten), who was hard up against the upper age limit for SSCs in the Branch (39 then). How she'd got past the Selection Board in the first place was a mystery, as she had an inferiority complex the size of a house. She had been brainwashed by her family to believe she was fated to fail whatever exam she tried, and needed a good talking-to.
"I've mentored a lot of students since I came here", I said, "I haven't lost one yet - and I'm not going to start with you - We'll get you through this Course if we have to drag you through by the hair !" And we did (get her through).
Never knew what happened to her. Hope she was Posted somewhere quiet !
Danny.
At Shawbury mainy moons ago mentored a Direct-Entry ATCO (name forgotten), who was hard up against the upper age limit for SSCs in the Branch (39 then). How she'd got past the Selection Board in the first place was a mystery, as she had an inferiority complex the size of a house. She had been brainwashed by her family to believe she was fated to fail whatever exam she tried, and needed a good talking-to.
"I've mentored a lot of students since I came here", I said, "I haven't lost one yet - and I'm not going to start with you - We'll get you through this Course if we have to drag you through by the hair !" And we did (get her through).
Never knew what happened to her. Hope she was Posted somewhere quiet !
Danny.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
2Planks, I started with 7, 2 str nav and 5 chopped P. One nav made AVM and the other Gp Capt at last count. 1 P made Canberra nav and then AeroSystems, of the other 4, one made Eng, one RAFP, don't know about the other 2.
Interesting point ORAC, my grandfather flew hurricanes in the battle France and later on after recovering from his wounds went on to fly typhoons and eventually tempests, he always said the same thing as well.
His favourite story, if memory serves correctly, revolved around either an NZ or Oz pilot who displayed all the aptitude of your average Vicky Pollard, he was however when in sight of the enemy utter fearless and ruthless and was a dead shot when it came to deflection shooting, I think I'm right that he was shot down by ground fire during an intruder mission and ended up making it to Switzerland and marrying a local maiden!
His favourite story, if memory serves correctly, revolved around either an NZ or Oz pilot who displayed all the aptitude of your average Vicky Pollard, he was however when in sight of the enemy utter fearless and ruthless and was a dead shot when it came to deflection shooting, I think I'm right that he was shot down by ground fire during an intruder mission and ended up making it to Switzerland and marrying a local maiden!
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(#Rough diamonds ?
Monarch Man and rolling20 (#35),
"Can't fly, but can shoot -
He still can be a bit of a brute !"
"Can fly, but can't shoot -
For him the Huns don't care a hoot !
(Anon)
"Can't fly, but can shoot -
He still can be a bit of a brute !"
"Can fly, but can't shoot -
For him the Huns don't care a hoot !
(Anon)
Last edited by Danny42C; 17th Apr 2017 at 17:17. Reason: Put in rest of it !
Thread Starter
Many Thanks for all your replies.
For what it is worth, I am in the Nature camp. I do believe those Nurtured have the basic Nature input. We are what we are, period.
For those of you who have 'It' and end up a Mil Pilot, particularly FJ, I am still envious.
I must have picked up my Mum's genes, so I am quite a good cook - the family will never starve!
TN.
For what it is worth, I am in the Nature camp. I do believe those Nurtured have the basic Nature input. We are what we are, period.
For those of you who have 'It' and end up a Mil Pilot, particularly FJ, I am still envious.
I must have picked up my Mum's genes, so I am quite a good cook - the family will never starve!
TN.
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Self-congratulating, I guess I was "Nature" as an ATCO, and bloody good at the job ... but they never let me be an Instructor. Apparently I was 'too tactical'.
serf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
No matter how well you go through training your career may well be subject to the military requirements.
On my course we had three choices on graduation.
Victors, Valiants or Vulcans.
Perhaps the course loading was deliberate, taking into account the OASC results.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
No matter how well you go through training your career may well be subject to the military requirements.
On my course we had three choices on graduation.
Victors, Valiants or Vulcans.
Perhaps the course loading was deliberate, taking into account the OASC results.....
Apart from two of us they were all ex UAS bods. One was a Marquis.