Will the UK leave NATO eventually?
The 1982 situation was in a lot of ways outside of the remit of the Washington Treaty (and it was, to be pedantic, south atlantic) but I think you'll know that back channel the special relationship wasn't useless. But also appreciate the political problem Reagan and friends faced with the Monroe Doctrine versus our Special Relationship versus the Usual Suspects here at home ... not as simple as it looks/looked. War is the child of politics, as is any alliance or coalition effort. This is part of the reason that I wasn't all up in arms about the Germans and French opting out of Iraq Coalition, even though a number of NATO allies signed up anyway: for them, it wasn't in the mix, politically. I got real annoyed at some of our domestic pols and that "Freedom Fries" crap.
Personally, I disagree with almost everything in that post from Airpolice. You can't even get the song quote correct, it was Eddie Cochran. But, heyho, everyone has the right etc.........
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What am I supposed to not ignore?
That the Russians never did invade and destroy us?
That they had nothing like the suspected capability?
That the Russians never did invade and destroy us?
That they had nothing like the suspected capability?
airpolice, if the collective bitterness over the Falklands causes the UK to leave NATO, I'll buy you a pint. Maybe two.
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Geordie, how do you see the election prospects for a party candidate who suggest that we spend money on the NHS instead of NATO? Maybe they could paint the details on the side of a bus? Maybe the people will decide.
Even the voters who don't remember the US arriving late for WW2 and not showing up at all for the Falklands, nobody who can vote now can be unaware of Libya, Irag, Afghanistan and Syria. How do you convince people (voting sheep) that funding NATO is a good idea, while there is no more money for the NHS, when NATO is really all about helping the US flex their military muscle all over the world?
Even the voters who don't remember the US arriving late for WW2 and not showing up at all for the Falklands, nobody who can vote now can be unaware of Libya, Irag, Afghanistan and Syria. How do you convince people (voting sheep) that funding NATO is a good idea, while there is no more money for the NHS, when NATO is really all about helping the US flex their military muscle all over the world?
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Lonewolf, It's probably not enough to make us leave, but it might be a big step towards not making us stay.
The only time that we have actually needed help in the last 70 years, and we didn't get it.
The only time that we have actually needed help in the last 70 years, and we didn't get it.
Geordie, how do you see the election prospects for a party candidate who suggest that we spend money on the NHS instead of NATO? Maybe they could paint the details on the side of a bus? Maybe the people will decide.
Even the voters who don't remember the US arriving late for WW2 and not showing up at all for the Falklands, nobody who can vote now can be unaware of Libya, Irag, Afghanistan and Syria. How do you convince people (voting sheep) that funding NATO is a good idea, while there is no more money for the NHS, when NATO is really all about helping the US flex their military muscle all over the world?
Even the voters who don't remember the US arriving late for WW2 and not showing up at all for the Falklands, nobody who can vote now can be unaware of Libya, Irag, Afghanistan and Syria. How do you convince people (voting sheep) that funding NATO is a good idea, while there is no more money for the NHS, when NATO is really all about helping the US flex their military muscle all over the world?
I can only repeat my earlier post (without the musical reference),
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As it turned out we didnt need their help to finish the job, Airpolice, although many British lives could have been saved had they given a rats arse.
To be honest, we get enough BS from them about "not winning WW2 if they hadn't turned up". Their involvement down south would've just given them another opportunity to falsely gloat.
To be honest, we get enough BS from them about "not winning WW2 if they hadn't turned up". Their involvement down south would've just given them another opportunity to falsely gloat.
airpolice:
Junglydaz:
You are both so wrong. If you had been in a position to see it at the time you would have realised that we found out who our friends were (should we have had any doubt) and they were not in Europe. The United States provided significant support in both equipment and other areas. I can also tell you that at various points individual US servicemen went out on a limb to help us without waiting for authorisation from their command chain. The provision of the Aim 9L and Harpoon is well known, but there was much more that has never been publicised.
YS
The only time that we have actually needed help in the last 70 years, and we didn't get it.
As it turned out we didnt need their help to finish the job, Airpolice, although many British lives could have been saved had they given a rats arse.
YS
Yellow Sun - I agree.
In making such comments, Airpolice is obviously clueless about what actually went on and the very generous and significant support that was both offered and provided.
From somebody in the know on the armament side of the house before, during and after, add to your list Shrike ARMs and the offer of the loan of the LHD USS Iwo Jima complete with "contractors" as part of the crew.
In making such comments, Airpolice is obviously clueless about what actually went on and the very generous and significant support that was both offered and provided.
From somebody in the know on the armament side of the house before, during and after, add to your list Shrike ARMs and the offer of the loan of the LHD USS Iwo Jima complete with "contractors" as part of the crew.
My point is that the public perception of what was done, is what will drive the voting patterns. Not having been seen to support us is what will do for them.
When a political move, suggesting that we stop contributing as much, is offered, then that will be hard to overcome.
I'm not saying that my little Englander attitude is correct, just that it is popular.
Had the US openly stood with the UK over the Falklands, instead of sneaking support under cover, it might have been easier to persuade the Argies that they should withdraw. Doing so in the face of the US as well as UK, might have allowed Galtieri to save a little face and back out before the task force arrived.
When a political move, suggesting that we stop contributing as much, is offered, then that will be hard to overcome.
I'm not saying that my little Englander attitude is correct, just that it is popular.
Had the US openly stood with the UK over the Falklands, instead of sneaking support under cover, it might have been easier to persuade the Argies that they should withdraw. Doing so in the face of the US as well as UK, might have allowed Galtieri to save a little face and back out before the task force arrived.
You ever have this experience: a man and a woman who are married and whom you care for, both of them, get into that divorce thing? It sucks. That's how I felt about the Falklands, two friends scrapping while the low life on the block laughed at us all.
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NATO is an agreement between members to provide military assistance from foreign aggressors. While the UK homeland may not have been attacked/invaded by the Soviets during the Cold War, what would the UK have done if the US/Soviet conflict over the Cuban missile situation had escalated to war?
NATO is an agreement between members to provide military assistance from foreign aggressors. While the UK homeland may not have been attacked/invaded by the Soviets during the Cold War, what would the UK have done if the US/Soviet conflict over the Cuban missile situation had escalated to war?
As to the 'US didn't get involved in Falklands' argument. Apart from the fact that they did, who cares? The UK didn't get involved in Vietnam, Grenada (we didn't even know about that one), Panama, etc, without weakening NATO.
And if it was going to happen, it would have already done so given that the conflict was 34 years ago.
It's a non argument.
As regards Vietnam, I was at Changi 63-66 and remember feeling then that we should have been involved. In retrospect that was mistaken, as even if the UK had been involved I can't see how it would have altered the final outcome. Nonetheless, it was very much part of the global containing of Communism, and in that respect was a follow on from the more successful outcome in Korea. There might have been a lot of naïve chatter about dominoes, but NATO was meanwhile successfully doing the same containing in Europe.
It was Harold Wilson's resolute refusal to lend a hand (or specifically a Scottish Piper) that prevented UK support. I must add that at no time do I remember any hostility whatsoever from US personnel about our lack of involvement, despite many visits to Pacific area US bases (including Saigon).
It was Harold Wilson's resolute refusal to lend a hand (or specifically a Scottish Piper) that prevented UK support. I must add that at no time do I remember any hostility whatsoever from US personnel about our lack of involvement, despite many visits to Pacific area US bases (including Saigon).
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UK membership of NATO will be bumped up onto the agenda by our lot if the EU moneymen get difficult with BREXIT. They need us, more than recently, and they know it.
It should always be there as a joker card......what are we defending from whom? The GB public will go with that.
It should always be there as a joker card......what are we defending from whom? The GB public will go with that.
. what are we defending from whom? The GB public will go with that.
Airpolice
Perhaps those same voters will recall the Brits missing the opening curtain as well.
Even the voters who don't remember the US arriving late for WW2