No aerobatics by Red Arrows at Farnborough!
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Flight may have pointed out the incidents involving other display teams, however this is about the Reds and their very impressive safety record.
I could compare Greek and British driving standards, we're all part of the EU (presently) and we drive the same mix of cars, however would you ever suggest that Greek roads are safer?
My point is statistically, the Reds are less likely to have an accident wherever they perform, comparisons and most definitely conclusions drawn from Shoreham do not take into account all the metrics.
I could compare Greek and British driving standards, we're all part of the EU (presently) and we drive the same mix of cars, however would you ever suggest that Greek roads are safer?
My point is statistically, the Reds are less likely to have an accident wherever they perform, comparisons and most definitely conclusions drawn from Shoreham do not take into account all the metrics.
Flight may have pointed out the incidents involving other display teams, however this is about the Reds and their very impressive safety record.
I could compare Greek and British driving standards, we're all part of the EU (presently) and we drive the same mix of cars, however would you ever suggest that Greek roads are safer?
My point is statistically, the Reds are less likely to have an accident wherever they perform, comparisons and most definitely conclusions drawn from Shoreham do not take into account all the metrics.
I could compare Greek and British driving standards, we're all part of the EU (presently) and we drive the same mix of cars, however would you ever suggest that Greek roads are safer?
My point is statistically, the Reds are less likely to have an accident wherever they perform, comparisons and most definitely conclusions drawn from Shoreham do not take into account all the metrics.
Be interesting to see what happens up this neck of the woods with Blackpool and Southport airshows, although both are over the sea in the main a lot of the turning is done over residential areas. I've been caught out more than once while trying to take pics from the extension roof by a bright red Hawk sneaking up behind me....and going directly over the house at low level!
Blackpool same, they seem to be on a level with the water tower at Warbreck as they turn.
Guess they'll have to amend the display to stay to seaward.
Blackpool same, they seem to be on a level with the water tower at Warbreck as they turn.
Guess they'll have to amend the display to stay to seaward.
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While I agree with Tourist that this seems an over the top reaction, I wonder if there might be a deeper concern within MoD. Lord alone knows how it avoided prosecution in the Flt Lt Cunningham case and it would be interesting to see if the organisational failures revealed there have been corrected. After all, the same failures have kept the ATC fleets grounded (or paused) for over two years. Could it be Shoreham is a convenient excuse?
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Tourist, again i agree but suggest it is Media Ops with, as you say What a Way to run a War Machine.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I've just seen this thread and haven't had the time to read through to see if the point has already been made, but here goes. It struck me back in August last year that the remedy for Shoreham was to ensure that all future airshows, where possible,take place over big enough airfields; i.e. Waddington, Scampton, Fairford, Leuchars, Yeovilton, Culdrose, all these places have the airfield space with sufficiently low infrastructure in the area around the airfields/display areas themselves. I've often wondered but had an idea why the Red Arrows have never given a full display at Shoreham, just looking around the area tells you all you need to know. I've also wondered when the organisers of Farnborough will eventually accept the situation today and plan to move the event somewhere else; i.e. Boscombe Down?
Of course it comes as no surprise to read that the official remedy to the incident at Shoreham is the Bottom Line as always. Pay more money to those who's permission is required and all problems solved. Result, further restrictions, higher gate prices, more faffing about i.e. tickets (including carpark tickets, charged separately in some cases now) in advance only, fewer events, some have already been lost due to the heftier levies imposed, and, of course, much reduced quality, and eroded interest. God help us from Bureaucrats.
FB
Of course it comes as no surprise to read that the official remedy to the incident at Shoreham is the Bottom Line as always. Pay more money to those who's permission is required and all problems solved. Result, further restrictions, higher gate prices, more faffing about i.e. tickets (including carpark tickets, charged separately in some cases now) in advance only, fewer events, some have already been lost due to the heftier levies imposed, and, of course, much reduced quality, and eroded interest. God help us from Bureaucrats.
FB
Last edited by Finningley Boy; 21st Jun 2016 at 20:19.
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FB, I'm not aware of any UK airfield big enough for the Red Arrows to do a full display over.
The dynamic nature of the display involves moves with a large turn radius and high speed passes. That's never going to be contained inside the footprint of an airfield.
The dynamic nature of the display involves moves with a large turn radius and high speed passes. That's never going to be contained inside the footprint of an airfield.
It's not the size of the area it's what's in it. Airfields or display venues are now required to present a catchment area within which the display item will be required to strut its stuff. If the participating item cannot comply due to difficulties circumnavigating obstructions etc within that arena then that participant will probably decline the offer to attend. Or the organiser will refuse entry.
It's a direct fallout from Shoreham. It's all about lawyers wanting their pound of flesh when the wheel comes off. Forget the CAA and the AAIB - think lawyers, law suits, writs, compensation, reputation. Write your risk assessment but make sure it really has reduced it to ALARP when the crunch comes buddy!
It's a direct fallout from Shoreham. It's all about lawyers wanting their pound of flesh when the wheel comes off. Forget the CAA and the AAIB - think lawyers, law suits, writs, compensation, reputation. Write your risk assessment but make sure it really has reduced it to ALARP when the crunch comes buddy!
Thanks Thomas, that was the point I was actually making, the airfields themselves are much larger than Shoreham to start with, but the local environs aren't as built up. No likely venue is free of surrounding infrastructure, but there is less likelihood of the Shoreham incident having the same tragic impact at any one of the places I've mentioned. If the same incident occurred at any of them, in relation to the centre of the runway, the most likely outcome would be a gouge in the grass on the field.
FB
FB
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FB or air show goers departing early on the roads
I think often the Reds are a signal to leave and watch from the car.
I think often the Reds are a signal to leave and watch from the car.
tuc:-
Like Tourist, I think that tuc has a valid point. A broken UK airworthiness system causes the entire Air Cadets fleet of gliders and powered gliders to be grounded for over two years and counting, yet the same broken system leads to the Reds' Hawk MB Mk 10 seat killing its pilot, and investigation reveals that it had no Safety Case and was thus by definition unairworthy. Unlike the Air Cadets, the Reds go on flying although in a more restricted way. Both fleets are non-operational and PR orientated, but when found to be unairworthy they are treated in different ways. Could it be that there is much crossing of fingers going on here?
After all, the same failures have kept the ATC fleets grounded (or paused) for over two years. Could it be Shoreham is a convenient excuse?
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Their flat display at Cosford due to weather wasn't half bad , I take it that is what they would intend to be doing at Farnborough.
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melmothtw, on the contrary; one aircraft loss in 4,700 public displays is excellent and possibly the best safety record of any of the national teams.
And with regard to Culdrose, there is a cottage hospital almost directly below the display line, so I do wonder how much longer the air show there wil continue now.
And with regard to Culdrose, there is a cottage hospital almost directly below the display line, so I do wonder how much longer the air show there wil continue now.