European Defence Force!! - You must be joking!! - Discuss....
Albert Ratman,
Serving officers of any rank cannot indulge in politics and we are now in Purdah, where no Government department can get involved. I am an Ex senior and I'm for Brexit. I also used to live near Waterloo, if this helps your case.
Serving officers of any rank cannot indulge in politics and we are now in Purdah, where no Government department can get involved. I am an Ex senior and I'm for Brexit. I also used to live near Waterloo, if this helps your case.
Last edited by MACH2NUMBER; 28th May 2016 at 15:18. Reason: Clarity
Mach2 - likewise..
I've voted for Brexit by postal vote. I don't consider myself a "Little Englander".. but I believe that the UK electorate must be able to vote for (or against) our lawmakers. Sovereignty is the key issue for me.
I've voted for Brexit by postal vote. I don't consider myself a "Little Englander".. but I believe that the UK electorate must be able to vote for (or against) our lawmakers. Sovereignty is the key issue for me.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
My daughter's OTOH are both Remain. Has any one else asked how their adult children will vote? Whatever happens we KOS will be largely unaffected, or dead.
My MiL, a dedicated outer at 91 has a grandson who has just started with easyJet as an FO, he is a remainer. Should we listen to or debate with our children, it is their future. Danny did his bit, We did ours. Now it is their turn.
My MiL, a dedicated outer at 91 has a grandson who has just started with easyJet as an FO, he is a remainer. Should we listen to or debate with our children, it is their future. Danny did his bit, We did ours. Now it is their turn.
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Apart from Jock Stirrup, who let his name be added to that infamous letter drafted by Downing Street, retired senior RAF officers seem have been quiet on the subject either way, unlike their khaki and dark blue counterparts.
Apart from Jock Stirrup, who let his name be added to that infamous letter drafted by Downing Street, retired senior RAF officers seem have been quiet on the subject either way, unlike their khaki and dark blue counterparts.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 28th May 2016 at 19:45.
For all of the bickering about NATO, it might be wise to consider that we did, at one time, share a common cause and at least a common purpose whose momentum carried over into the difficult peace after a horrible war. That common purpose brought a measure of peace and stability to central and western Europe.
If the European Defense Force is seen (politically) as a replacement for the collective security structure maintained by the North Atlantic alliance, will we have to engage with our children -- on both sides of the ocean -- on the pros and cons of that linkage and the value of being on side together?
This issue came up 20 years ago as "Eurocorps" was being tossed about as an idea. As an RRF, the idea was similar to UN and NATO in terms of nations offering troop units to support an op. Someone mentioned the NATO AWACS group, who have been an operational success. Another multinational success was the WEU maritime interdiction by in the Adriatic (Sharp Fence). It was later merged with a NATO op (Maritime Guard) to become Sharp Guard which was a success story insofar as multinational operations go.
Can this multinational force operate without the core C2 backbone from NATO?
As the nations have gotten used to working together for about 70 years, maybe yes. .
If the European Defense Force is seen (politically) as a replacement for the collective security structure maintained by the North Atlantic alliance, will we have to engage with our children -- on both sides of the ocean -- on the pros and cons of that linkage and the value of being on side together?
This issue came up 20 years ago as "Eurocorps" was being tossed about as an idea. As an RRF, the idea was similar to UN and NATO in terms of nations offering troop units to support an op. Someone mentioned the NATO AWACS group, who have been an operational success. Another multinational success was the WEU maritime interdiction by in the Adriatic (Sharp Fence). It was later merged with a NATO op (Maritime Guard) to become Sharp Guard which was a success story insofar as multinational operations go.
Can this multinational force operate without the core C2 backbone from NATO?
As the nations have gotten used to working together for about 70 years, maybe yes. .
L Wolf. I haven't seen too much bickering about NATO, in this thread, only the proposed EURO Forces. NATO still works. NATO AWACS, which I know only too well, is a NATO product, driven by a severe operational shortfall during the Cold War and now sustained by industrial imperatives. Nations put in money and, roughly speaking, get their money back in industrial benefits. As far as I am aware, there is no similar scheme in the EU, which adds real additional capability and works. Perhaps others know more than I?
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Lonewolf, like your thoughts. I see a Euro Defence Force as a NATO lite (no US forces) to be used for "european" issues but able to tap into the NATO structures to assist. Going forward I think the US pivot to pacific would mean they would also be keen for it. Good example would be Mediterranean naval patrols.
Really can't see why it is causing such anguish.
Really can't see why it is causing such anguish.
AY:-
The principal "European" issue will be the civil war that true union will inevitably lead to, a la the USSR and the USA. Some here may want to don the blue of the Union Forces, or cling to the quaint belief that our negotiated exemptions would allow us to be part of the EU but not obliged to fight for it. Include me out...
I see a Euro Defence Force as a NATO lite (no US forces) to be used for "european" issues but able to tap into the NATO structures to assist.
The principal "European" issue will be the civil war that true union will inevitably lead to, a la the USSR and the USA. Some here may want to don the blue of the Union Forces, or cling to the quaint belief that our negotiated exemptions would allow us to be part of the EU but not obliged to fight for it. Include me out...
Since I'm from there, I think about the point where Rhodesia chose not to become part of South Africa, which was incredibly stupid with hindsight even if it was an issue of sovereignty and not wanting to be run by Afrikaaners. Would the National Party have even been able to implement Apartheid with another couple of hundred thousand votes against them? Even if they had, Rhodesia v "freedom fighters" was quite a different thing from SA v "freedom fighters" in an economic sense particularly.
I don't want Zim to be part of SA particularly but I think if Zimbabwe could be no worse than the rest of SA now and have been so for the last 36 years then I suppose I would have to admit that it would have been the right thing to do.
So I don't think these choices are straightforward.
L Wolf. I haven't seen too much bickering about NATO, in this thread, only the proposed EURO Forces. NATO still works. NATO AWACS, which I know only too well, is a NATO product, driven by a severe operational shortfall during the Cold War and now sustained by industrial imperatives. Nations put in money and, roughly speaking, get their money back in industrial benefits. As far as I am aware, there is no similar scheme in the EU, which adds real additional capability and works. Perhaps others know more than I?
What second event/crisis can the EU defense proponents handle that establishes that collective effort as a stand alone from the long link? (I am not blind to some of the political obstacles to that). Put another way, whomever is championing this independent capability needs to demonstrate that the collective political will can get X done.
(That's why I tossed out the WEU flotilla, as it was an earnest effort in that direction well supported ... even though the larger effort eventually hadn't the momentum to work without outside help).
Since I've been a proponent of "bring the boys home" for about two decades (even though I lived in Germany as a kid and had a very fulfilling job in NATO proper) I may be an unusual PoV holder on this side of the pond.
Can the political obstacles be overcome?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
It's not going to happen, but an interesting point for discussion: would we be better off applying to become the fifty-first state of the USA?
L Wolf, thanks giving some more insight to your position. I was at the pointed end of NATO in Bosnia (OP Deny Flight) air-to-air fighters. This might have functioned well, but for dual ROE with the UN who were particularly keen to allow free access to all combatant helicopters. I do not recall the EU being particularly involved in the air blockade at all.
I have had the pleasure to serve with 'your boys' in NATO, the UK, the US and elsewhere. I sincerely hope that you never bring them back home or we are well and truly stuffed!
I have had the pleasure to serve with 'your boys' in NATO, the UK, the US and elsewhere. I sincerely hope that you never bring them back home or we are well and truly stuffed!
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PN
My easyJ boy is an outer - the young need reminding of the 53/50/37% youth unemployment in Greece/Spain/Italy. The EU is a basket case in its present form. It is unwilling to be reformed.
I worked in NATO in the 80's, I have a debt of gratitude to the US and Canada.
My easyJ boy is an outer - the young need reminding of the 53/50/37% youth unemployment in Greece/Spain/Italy. The EU is a basket case in its present form. It is unwilling to be reformed.
I worked in NATO in the 80's, I have a debt of gratitude to the US and Canada.
L Wolf, thanks giving some more insight to your position. I was at the pointed end of NATO in Bosnia (OP Deny Flight) air-to-air fighters. This might have functioned well, but for dual ROE with the UN who were particularly keen to allow free access to all combatant helicopters. I do not recall the EU being particularly involved in the air blockade at all.
I have had the pleasure to serve with 'your boys' in NATO, the UK, the US and elsewhere. I sincerely hope that you never bring them back home or we are well and truly stuffed!
I have had the pleasure to serve with 'your boys' in NATO, the UK, the US and elsewhere. I sincerely hope that you never bring them back home or we are well and truly stuffed!
t43562:-
I agree, but why go there in the first place? The Southern States wanted to secede, but that led directly to civil war. Unless we get out of the EU now, the same could apply to us and for every other European country that realises that it is a square peg in a round hole.
That is the problem with such "Unions", they cannot tolerate dissent for it can lead to their own domino-like collapse. The irony is that this particular Union, the result of a dissembling that presented it as a mere Economic Community to disguise its true purpose of European political unification to avoid further nationalistic wars, now threatens the worst kind of war known to man, Civil War.
As ever, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The United States is possibly not the worst outcome as far as a Southerner might be concerned today - compared e.g. to the increased possibility of the Nazis or the USSR having "won" against a more fragmented world.
That is the problem with such "Unions", they cannot tolerate dissent for it can lead to their own domino-like collapse. The irony is that this particular Union, the result of a dissembling that presented it as a mere Economic Community to disguise its true purpose of European political unification to avoid further nationalistic wars, now threatens the worst kind of war known to man, Civil War.
As ever, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
To have a civil war you need armed force. Should one or more southern states declare Exit then what?
A European Force would comprise elements from every nation. Those from Southern states would have to go home if they opted to support their home state.
Then the remaining force would have to obey an order to "restore order" in the south. Can you conceive of that happening?
Disintegration, yes, forced reintegration, I don't think so
A European Force would comprise elements from every nation. Those from Southern states would have to go home if they opted to support their home state.
Then the remaining force would have to obey an order to "restore order" in the south. Can you conceive of that happening?
Disintegration, yes, forced reintegration, I don't think so