European Defence Force!! - You must be joking!! - Discuss....
Then the remaining force would have to obey an order to "restore order" in the south. Can you conceive of that happening?
British history in particular has one unifying theme, to oppose the strongest European power at any time, lest it threatened the possibility of invasion and our subjugation; be it Spain, France, Germany, the USSR, even Holland! A unified and armed European Union would merely add to that list in my view.
In the jargon of this forum, watch your 6 o'clock!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 30th May 2016 at 13:15. Reason: For!
I think Pontius Navigator nailed it, chug.
Before there's a civil war, someone would first have to forge that Reich/Empire against which certain states might rise up and leave. That forging is either not going to happen, or is going to take a long while to happen. If one believes that a Central European hegemon is making a play for all of the cards, each and every local concern must be either accommodated or bullied into submission. In this era of information glut, the ability to steal a march is curbed -- politically. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure, so folks in Greece, Italy, Spain, elsewhere are already chaffing at the North of Alps influence long before any such hegemony has been established.
Before there's a civil war, someone would first have to forge that Reich/Empire against which certain states might rise up and leave. That forging is either not going to happen, or is going to take a long while to happen. If one believes that a Central European hegemon is making a play for all of the cards, each and every local concern must be either accommodated or bullied into submission. In this era of information glut, the ability to steal a march is curbed -- politically. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure, so folks in Greece, Italy, Spain, elsewhere are already chaffing at the North of Alps influence long before any such hegemony has been established.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It was Chug who brought up civil war. The civil war he had in mind was as in the US. This is inconceivable; who would follow a directive from Brussels to send troops into another State?
I just think the timing is interesting.
The debate regarding an EU Force comes immediately after the decimation of a once potent UK Armed Forces. Who'd have guessed......
The debate regarding an EU Force comes immediately after the decimation of a once potent UK Armed Forces. Who'd have guessed......
PN:-
PN, lest you think me rude, I did reply. Mysteriously my post has disappeared into the dust-bin of history. I'll keep this one brief as history has a habit of repeating itself!
The civil war that I envisage can obviously only take place when and if the EU becomes a state in its own right. That is the intended purpose of "ever closer union". A state needs a flag (tick), an anthem (tick), a common currency (mass civil unrest to date), no internal frontiers (starting to reclose already) and a military force (per this thread).
Not what you call great progress I'll admit, but the Eurocrats' agenda is still there and I for one don't underestimate their tenacity to succeed. If they ever do succeed then the possibility of certain southern States attempting to secede is quite large in my view. So a newly formed Union will have little choice but to counter such attempts, or see itself disintegrate. Hence the need for a military force.
We now have an opportunity now to bail out of this foolish experiment, which may indeed lead to its premature disintegration, or better still see it changed it back to the European Economic Community that we signed up for under a false prospectus in 1974. Either way I don't want to live to see my grand-children receiving call-up papers from Brussels to report to their newly mobilised local militia with orders to march south!
This was supposed to be short, sorry.
It was Chug who brought up civil war. The civil war he had in mind was as in the US. This is inconceivable; who would follow a directive from Brussels to send troops into another State?
The civil war that I envisage can obviously only take place when and if the EU becomes a state in its own right. That is the intended purpose of "ever closer union". A state needs a flag (tick), an anthem (tick), a common currency (mass civil unrest to date), no internal frontiers (starting to reclose already) and a military force (per this thread).
Not what you call great progress I'll admit, but the Eurocrats' agenda is still there and I for one don't underestimate their tenacity to succeed. If they ever do succeed then the possibility of certain southern States attempting to secede is quite large in my view. So a newly formed Union will have little choice but to counter such attempts, or see itself disintegrate. Hence the need for a military force.
We now have an opportunity now to bail out of this foolish experiment, which may indeed lead to its premature disintegration, or better still see it changed it back to the European Economic Community that we signed up for under a false prospectus in 1974. Either way I don't want to live to see my grand-children receiving call-up papers from Brussels to report to their newly mobilised local militia with orders to march south!
This was supposed to be short, sorry.
Not what you call great progress I'll admit, but the Eurocrats' agenda is still there and I for one don't underestimate their tenacity to succeed. If they ever do succeed then the possibility of certain southern States attempting to secede is quite large in my view. So a newly formed Union will have little choice but to counter such attempts, or see itself disintegrate. Hence the need for a military force.
Originally Posted by PN
CM, thought we did that a couple of times already.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I'd suggest that you're confusing cause and effect Chugalug. Rather than being the cause of a future civil war, the EU was created precisely to prevent another one after WW2.
Agree Courtney. You can take any potential scenario to the Nth degree, but I don't think anyone would suggest that an EU civil war (an actual shooting war) is credible.
melmothtw:-
Well quite, Melmoth, but as the blessed Tony has made us learn the hard way, history is strewn with unforeseeable consequences.
CM:-
Is that what they are saying? Well then, that just goes to prove my point! How others vote is their affair. Personally the EU has as much appeal to me as a rather dodgy banger offered by Arthur Daly. I agree that it is very unlikely to achieve the final Union that it is aiming for, but in the meantime it is wreaking havoc with the economies of the southern states, the security of all of its members, and the patience of the German tax-payer. In my view it carries the seeds of its own destruction and any discomfort in leaving now will be a small price to pay to avoid the deluge of its disintegration.
As to the OP, can anyone explain just why the EU needs an EDF? Is it in order to keep the peace in Europe, that evidently it has kept anyway since WWII and for which it received the Nobel Peace Prize? Or is it perhaps to keep the peace in the EU, an altogether separate matter.
Rather than being the cause of a future civil war, the EU was created precisely to prevent another one after WW2.
CM:-
Boris or Nigel, "Vote Leave or your grandchildren will be forced to invade Spain!"
As to the OP, can anyone explain just why the EU needs an EDF? Is it in order to keep the peace in Europe, that evidently it has kept anyway since WWII and for which it received the Nobel Peace Prize? Or is it perhaps to keep the peace in the EU, an altogether separate matter.
As to the OP, can anyone explain just why the EU needs an EDF? Is it in order to keep the peace in Europe, that evidently it has kept anyway since WWII, and for which it received the Nobel peace Prize? Or is it perhaps to keep the peace in the EU, an altogether separate affair.
While there are many differences in the defence concerns of the EU member states (such as the Falklands for the UK, for example), these did not get in the way of founding NATO, and so shouldn't have an impact on the creation of an 'EDF', if it were decided that was the best road to go down.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts