Baltic 'incident'
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I may be being a bit Pollyanna-ish, but I don't look for much aggression from Putin outside of a little feel-good rah-rah stuff for the Russian public - like buzzing the US Navy. The thought of China eyeing Siberia is bound to depress his willingness to get too involved in hostilities elsewhere.
Russia's current population is only 143.5 million, a far cry from the old Soviet Union's. It's still a bear, but no longer a grizzly.
Russia's current population is only 143.5 million, a far cry from the old Soviet Union's. It's still a bear, but no longer a grizzly.
It's still a bear, but no longer a grizzly.
The critical thing is this wounded, vengeful cripple retains its teeth but not all its former sanity or sound judgement.
I'd call it a very dangerous bear indeed while that testosterone-challenged thug in the Kremlin remains in charge.
18 Group rules ...
Hmm, all that ‘400 foot, 1/4 mile, 3 passes’ stuff and the oddly named ‘Run of Three’ was an agreement between some of NATO and the Navy of the Soviet Union to avoid unnecessary hassle to the ships of both navies.
It was only a ‘rule’ in 18 Group, no one else bothered, 1 Group, 38 Group, RAFG etc had never heard of it and we just did what we liked, within reason. The Russians certainly never stuck to it, ‘lifting a wing to clear a mast’ happened a lot back then.
As for the Kriegsmarine F-104 guys in the Baltic – anything was fair game for a high speed pass. The Danish Draakens were just as robust and they got close enough for some very good photos.
This is just another video straight to internet ‘oh look at that!’ moment.
It was only a ‘rule’ in 18 Group, no one else bothered, 1 Group, 38 Group, RAFG etc had never heard of it and we just did what we liked, within reason. The Russians certainly never stuck to it, ‘lifting a wing to clear a mast’ happened a lot back then.
As for the Kriegsmarine F-104 guys in the Baltic – anything was fair game for a high speed pass. The Danish Draakens were just as robust and they got close enough for some very good photos.
This is just another video straight to internet ‘oh look at that!’ moment.
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The ship, by some reports, was 70 miles from Russia. I am somewhat reluctant to type "top speed of Russian fighter jets" into a popular search engine, but my guess is that it is a very few minutes flying time from the shoreline to the US warship.
The US is now also flying the flag in the China Sea, and one might expect that things there might get a little more tense than this episode if they come that close to mainland China.
Nobody in the media reports I saw questioned why the sailors were on deck with their cell phone cameras rather than at General Quarters...
The US is now also flying the flag in the China Sea, and one might expect that things there might get a little more tense than this episode if they come that close to mainland China.
Nobody in the media reports I saw questioned why the sailors were on deck with their cell phone cameras rather than at General Quarters...
Hmm, all that ‘400 foot, 1/4 mile, 3 passes’ stuff and the oddly named ‘Run of Three’ was an agreement between some of NATO and the Navy of the Soviet Union to avoid unnecessary hassle to the ships of both navies.
It was only a ‘rule’ in 18 Group, no one else bothered, 1 Group, 38 Group, RAFG etc had never heard of it and we just did what we liked, within reason. The Russians certainly never stuck to it, ‘lifting a wing to clear a mast’ happened a lot back then.
As for the Kriegsmarine F-104 guys in the Baltic – anything was fair game for a high speed pass. The Danish Draakens were just as robust and they got close enough for some very good photos.
This is just another video straight to internet ‘oh look at that!’ moment.
It was only a ‘rule’ in 18 Group, no one else bothered, 1 Group, 38 Group, RAFG etc had never heard of it and we just did what we liked, within reason. The Russians certainly never stuck to it, ‘lifting a wing to clear a mast’ happened a lot back then.
As for the Kriegsmarine F-104 guys in the Baltic – anything was fair game for a high speed pass. The Danish Draakens were just as robust and they got close enough for some very good photos.
This is just another video straight to internet ‘oh look at that!’ moment.
Good old terminology was a 'lowsee' and 50' would be considered average. I have some old photos somewhere of the usual sight of a couple of Buccs passing at my level whilst in a 40' hover whilst on CASEX.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
400 feet/quarter mile was as much for best camera angle. IIRC crossing stern or bow was 600 feet.
Then there was the SAR case where an MPA orbiting a ship and flying off meant follow me. Fly too many passes and you might have them following you.
Game wise I recall trying to make the 3 passes on the Shetland Tug. After the first pass down the starboard side we set up for the next pass, she turned and we got the starboard side again. This went on for a good 30 minutes as we never got the 2nd and 3rd passes
We could see the captain on the bridge, white lumpy shirt, as she grinned at us.
Then there was the SAR case where an MPA orbiting a ship and flying off meant follow me. Fly too many passes and you might have them following you.
Game wise I recall trying to make the 3 passes on the Shetland Tug. After the first pass down the starboard side we set up for the next pass, she turned and we got the starboard side again. This went on for a good 30 minutes as we never got the 2nd and 3rd passes
We could see the captain on the bridge, white lumpy shirt, as she grinned at us.
Dronedog neglected to plot everything: the locations of Russian naval vessels in the western Atlantic and eastern Pacific, the many friends of the USA also bordering on the Baltic.... nor mark the international waters in which the freedom of navigation is to be assured, and regularly exercised by US naval vessels and military aircraft as well.
Nice penmanship though.
Nice penmanship though.
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GlobalNav,
Would be interesting to learn about "Russian naval vessels in the western Atlantic" as Russia has no naval bases in that part of the world. Again, have you seen any of them 40 miles off Virginia Beach (the distance this destroyer approached the Russian military base)?
If you meant subs, then this is irrelevant since they can't be challenged in that way and so far Pentagon did not find this issue as critical:
Russian subs near US coast pose no threat: Pentagon | Alternet
Would be interesting to learn about "Russian naval vessels in the western Atlantic" as Russia has no naval bases in that part of the world. Again, have you seen any of them 40 miles off Virginia Beach (the distance this destroyer approached the Russian military base)?
If you meant subs, then this is irrelevant since they can't be challenged in that way and so far Pentagon did not find this issue as critical:
Russian subs near US coast pose no threat: Pentagon | Alternet
A_Van
I didn't mean to imply that Russian subs pose a threat or not. I don't personally patrol the ocean off the coast of Virgina Beach, and the US Navy does not report that information to me, but Russian naval vessels are not unknown near many of the US Naval ports, particularly those hosting the submarine forces. And, they are free to be there in international waters, and I doubt they get such hostile treatment there from the US Navy, either. I likewise have no doubt they are closely watched.
I agree though, it would be interesting to know more about the Russian naval activity.
I gathered that DroneDog's graphic was intended to imply that the US Navy has no justifiable business in the Baltic, and I respectfully disagree. We have allies there, we have an interest in exercising the rights of international passage and by the way pose absolutely no threat to the Russians, militarily or otherwise, while doing so.
I'll let the Navy speak to the hazards posed by Russian air activity in such close proximity to a moving naval vessel. But the US naval presence was peaceful, nonthreatening, legal, routine and totally safe. Whatever the Russian aircraft were doing there and why, they did increase the level of hazard and raise the tension for no good reason.
I didn't mean to imply that Russian subs pose a threat or not. I don't personally patrol the ocean off the coast of Virgina Beach, and the US Navy does not report that information to me, but Russian naval vessels are not unknown near many of the US Naval ports, particularly those hosting the submarine forces. And, they are free to be there in international waters, and I doubt they get such hostile treatment there from the US Navy, either. I likewise have no doubt they are closely watched.
I agree though, it would be interesting to know more about the Russian naval activity.
I gathered that DroneDog's graphic was intended to imply that the US Navy has no justifiable business in the Baltic, and I respectfully disagree. We have allies there, we have an interest in exercising the rights of international passage and by the way pose absolutely no threat to the Russians, militarily or otherwise, while doing so.
I'll let the Navy speak to the hazards posed by Russian air activity in such close proximity to a moving naval vessel. But the US naval presence was peaceful, nonthreatening, legal, routine and totally safe. Whatever the Russian aircraft were doing there and why, they did increase the level of hazard and raise the tension for no good reason.
I wish I could take credit for the sketch but I lifted it off the internet, its circulating widely.
Can you imagine the US response or even the UK if the situation was reversed.
Can you imagine the US response or even the UK if the situation was reversed.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Globalnav, no secret as the Soviets knew, but once we (the RN) marked a Soviet AGI with a replenishment oiler, Olwen made a much better marker than a frigate.
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GlobalNav,
On the whole I respectfully agree with what you wrote in the latter post. See no reason to play such childish tricks, especially now when the tension raised. Instead, we all have to try to cool the situation down. But again, if the US knew that Russia used to overreact (at least as the States take it) like it happended before in Black Sea, why to challenge/tease them? Maybe indeed the ship was making a fully peaceful and routine tour around the Baltic, but it by definition carries plenty of weapons, e.g. incomparable with any bomber (that indeed may fly empty).
And still the point is unanswered about a hypothetically reversed situation...
On the whole I respectfully agree with what you wrote in the latter post. See no reason to play such childish tricks, especially now when the tension raised. Instead, we all have to try to cool the situation down. But again, if the US knew that Russia used to overreact (at least as the States take it) like it happended before in Black Sea, why to challenge/tease them? Maybe indeed the ship was making a fully peaceful and routine tour around the Baltic, but it by definition carries plenty of weapons, e.g. incomparable with any bomber (that indeed may fly empty).
And still the point is unanswered about a hypothetically reversed situation...
A_Van
The air activity was rather childish and unprofessional and I have no evidence one way or the other about "reversed situations". I rather suspect there have been some, though, over the years based on comments from others here with apparently more direct experience.
I don't think the US naval activity in the Baltic or in the Black Sea is "teasing". It is legal exercise of international navigation rights. Exercise which, in my opinion, by its routine nature actually reduces the novelty and tension that rare events might engender.
I don't think the hazard comes merely from the weapons carried. I'm sure the US ship was very well-armed and ready for many kinds of contingencies. But it wasn't as threatening and possibly careless as a needlessly close pass by a fast jet.
The air activity was rather childish and unprofessional and I have no evidence one way or the other about "reversed situations". I rather suspect there have been some, though, over the years based on comments from others here with apparently more direct experience.
I don't think the US naval activity in the Baltic or in the Black Sea is "teasing". It is legal exercise of international navigation rights. Exercise which, in my opinion, by its routine nature actually reduces the novelty and tension that rare events might engender.
I don't think the hazard comes merely from the weapons carried. I'm sure the US ship was very well-armed and ready for many kinds of contingencies. But it wasn't as threatening and possibly careless as a needlessly close pass by a fast jet.
A_Van,
In recent years the Russian Navy intelligence collection vessels have been operating off the east coast of the US (Florida and Georgia). During 2012 one AGI was granted safe harbour due to weather.
Russian attack sub detected near East Coast
Russian Intel Ship Spying on US Missile Submarines - Washington Free Beacon
Pentagon acknowledges reports of Russian ship off Georgia coast
In recent years the Russian Navy intelligence collection vessels have been operating off the east coast of the US (Florida and Georgia). During 2012 one AGI was granted safe harbour due to weather.
Meanwhile, the officials also said that a Russian electronic intelligence-gathering vessel was granted safe harbor in the commercial port of Jacksonville, Fla., within listening range of Kings Bay.
The Russian AGI ship, or Auxiliary-General Intelligence, was allowed to stay in the port to avoid the superstorm that battered the U.S. East Coast last week. A Jacksonville Port Authority spokeswoman had no immediate comment on the Russian AGI at the port.
The Russian AGI ship, or Auxiliary-General Intelligence, was allowed to stay in the port to avoid the superstorm that battered the U.S. East Coast last week. A Jacksonville Port Authority spokeswoman had no immediate comment on the Russian AGI at the port.
The intelligence collection ship, Viktor Leonov, has been closely watched by U.S. Navy ships and aircraft for the past several days near Jacksonville, Fla., close to the Naval Submarine Base at Kings Bay, Ga. The ship also conducted operations there in April.....
This week, the Leonov was spotted anchored about 22 miles off the Florida coast, southeast of Kings Bay.
This week, the Leonov was spotted anchored about 22 miles off the Florida coast, southeast of Kings Bay.
Pentagon acknowledges reports of Russian ship off Georgia coast
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I note that a Helix circled the ship 7 times. On one Op a P3 sat on the Kiev for a number of hours calling in activity on deck. We sat about 80 miles off monitoring her flight ops.
Eventually they were sufficiently pee'd off that they sent a Forger to push us away. We then had an F4 sent out to cover us.
All SOP.
Eventually they were sufficiently pee'd off that they sent a Forger to push us away. We then had an F4 sent out to cover us.
All SOP.