Death of the Airshow?
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questions be raised about predominantly rural sites like Duxford.
Plane comes down at Duxford airfield.
History of airfield crashes.
Aerial view of Duxford.
aceatco, retired
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
The DH Club Moth Rally at Woburn Cancelled
As one of the Organisers of the DH Moth Rally and the author of the note on the Moths at Woburn website and FB page the cancellation had nothing whatsoever to do with the increase in CAA charges (or Shoreham, for that matter). The decision not to run it any longer was made in December for commercial reasons. An air display was only a very small part of the event and could have easily been left out and therefore leave us outside the new charges.
If you care to do a bit of research, which you clearly have not, I think you will find some of the other events you are now trumpeting as cancelled were called off before the consultation was published.
Having been in the air display 'business' for 25 years and recently attending the BADA Symposium I heard first hand why the CAA are having to go down this road. We need clear thinking, not hysterics.
Last edited by vintage ATCO; 13th Feb 2016 at 15:26.
TN - I know Duxford well, so do not disagree - the point I was making, probably not well, is that Farnborough is surrounded by urban sprawl, , and therefore potentially a greater risk
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Petition now past 13000: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/120628
The government must respon at 10k. At 100k a parliametry debate can occur.
You can also need to comment on the CAA 5 year Strategy, which talks about reducing the regulatory burden(!), and the display / LL flying charges consultation (both close THIS Friday).
https://www.caa.co.uk/our-work/Consu...consultations/
The government must respon at 10k. At 100k a parliametry debate can occur.
You can also need to comment on the CAA 5 year Strategy, which talks about reducing the regulatory burden(!), and the display / LL flying charges consultation (both close THIS Friday).
https://www.caa.co.uk/our-work/Consu...consultations/
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TN - I know Duxford well, so do not disagree - the point I was making, probably not well, is that Farnborough is surrounded by urban sprawl, , and therefore potentially a greater risk
An easy fix for Duxford would be to buy the fields near where BBD went in and swivel the runway slightly if needed.
VintageATC, thanks for clarifying that. Nothing against safety changes, simply the fact they are pricing a lot of Charity supporting airshows out of business.
Having been in the air display 'business' for 25 years and recently attending the BADA Symposium I heard first hand why the CAA are having to go down this road. We need clear thinking, not hysterics.
Perhaps you could enlighten us...??
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A guide on how to fill out the consultation forms
"How to fill in CAA form consultation". "Save Our Airshows" NEW website with tips etc
"How to fill in CAA form consultation". "Save Our Airshows" NEW website with tips etc
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As it was put to us, greater oversight of air displays including Enhanced Risk Assessments, requires four additional people (2x Flt Ops, 1x Airworthiness, 1x Admin Support) which equals £250K pa. The CAA Board have directed that this cost is met by the user, this year. Might not agree with it but couldn't argue with the maths.
There are other changes to DA/DAEs which I am not really qualified to talk about but others have eloquently. Many seem sensible, others not so.
There are other changes to DA/DAEs which I am not really qualified to talk about but others have eloquently. Many seem sensible, others not so.
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Well this tells the CAA how things are and really lays it on
JOINT STATEMENT BY THE ?HONOURABLE COMPANY OF AIR PILOTS? AND THE ?BRITISH AIR DISPLAY ASSOCIATION? : British Air Display Association
JOINT STATEMENT BY THE ?HONOURABLE COMPANY OF AIR PILOTS? AND THE ?BRITISH AIR DISPLAY ASSOCIATION? : British Air Display Association
Looks like the RAF (sort of) are getting in on the act: Carol Vorderman hits out at red tape which led to cancellation of Llandudno Air Show - Daily Post
As a Wing Commander, it doesn't surprise me that she is in contact with members of parliament etc. Grant Shapps is no doubt on her speed dial...
Flug
As a Wing Commander, it doesn't surprise me that she is in contact with members of parliament etc. Grant Shapps is no doubt on her speed dial...
Flug
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But that's how the CAA are these days, take a look at the HAA, an attempt to offload warbird maintenance regulation onto industry, the same has happened to other parts of the job, and does it make it safer? No, a lack of a regulatory authority laying down concise and cut in stone rules leaves it open to interpretation, for myself the realization came when they told me that the previously mandatory maintenance manuals were now open to interpretation as to what needed to be complied with... Previously it used to be the backstop that the CAA would use, these days it all feels to be covering their backs as they are worried about getting sued.
It's turning into quite a minefield.
https://www.facebook.com/Hangar11Col...85852481555042
https://www.facebook.com/Hangar11Col...85852481555042
Sorry to be predictable but here I go with another apology .
It’s been a few weeks and I have not been able to respond to the many hundreds of posts and comments received on the site but I will be better, I promise , so please keep sending for me and others to enjoy.
So do I start with a rant or go to news, no I’ll go right in with the rant This season , post Andy’s accident , that few seconds of tragedy has become the 9/11 of our little world. I am not for a moment ignoring the great tragedy and loss of life at Shoreham and I am always cognisant of the fact that regulation needs to be tightened to avoid any such tragedy going forward. However, it’s sheer chaos for all in the display industry as the regulatory body (our much beloved CAA) are neither communicating nor organising but simply in “head in the sand” mode.
At recent BADA conference, as an industry we all lobbied the CAA to rethink the painful hike in charges being proposed and that was a complete waste of time, as they went ahead anyway after a sham of a consultation period. All “in the name of safety”, I don’t agree as no part will benefit anything but the coffers of the regulator. For me, it’s just a way to squeeze cash out of this poor niche industry and it will hurt. You have a wedding; want a display , well CAA fees start at £224. Have a small local event for charity, with kids and stalls and ponies, want a display well that will be £374 in CAA fees to start off before we have even left the ground.
Mr CAA said “ call us we are here to help” LoL….I have recently sent 4 emails and made multiple calls to GA section at Gatwick on an urgent matter related to a display and no chance, no one will pick the phone up or reply. I tried the top man, no use, phone rings off, no VM. I hear that 3 blokes are now deciding on permissions and exemptions ( the process by which we seek permission to fly any displays, from Farnborough down to the local fete) and not one has any specific airshow experience, only one is a pilot!. I have mates at the CAA and many are good guys but hey…this is a crazy way to administer an industry that gives pleasure to millions and attracts crowds second only to football each year.
As display pilots, we have to hold a DA (display authority) and undertake regular checks in the form of flying a display every 12 months in the presence of a DAE ( display authority examiner) . No issues at all with that but with all the heightened focus on the industry, the limited number of DAEs are shrinking as some decide to hang up their boots in fear of increased personal liability. So when my DA expires in June, I may well struggle to find a DAE who has the ticket to examine my rarer category “C” aircraft.
I used to renew typically at an airshow, often with a CAA employee sitting on the FCC ( flight control committee) in a real airshow environment, what better. However, post Shoreham, these few highly experienced guys have now all been stripped of their DAE tickets as the CAA will not allow…..just bloody stupid
So we start the season as an industry in turmoil. As a pilot operator, I have a whole raft of additional paperwork, risk assessments and the necessity to interface with not only local police, coast guard and ATC but now local authority as well, doing separate risk assessments for that body, waiting for them to send you another pile of paperwork. All this for perhaps a flypast for a local show or a display at a wedding. Plus how will we display pilots really be feeling this year, in the sure knowledge that every FDD ( flight display director) will be a bundle of nerves and poised on the red button to call “stop, stop, stop” for the smallest apparent infringement ( before accepted or a gentle rebuke on the radio ) . Any stop call will mean an instant temporary withdrawal of the DA until the CAA have decided on the merits, who knows when. Say this is the first of a multiple display weekend, then the rest of your weekend is toast, you cannot display again, think about that ?
Maybe folks like me will be so deeply focussed on the ground and what we are flying close to, God, is that a caravan, does that constitute a built up area…that we forget to fly the planes. I think airshow audiences can expect “ vanilla” perhaps more sedate, high level displays, with less content as pilots protect their arses and family homes. What a bloody shambles mates
To be honest it’s rapidly coming to the point where folks like me can’t be bothered, just too hard and stressful. How do I tell clients that have booked a Hangar 11 Collection display, that their fees are doubled since 1st April, just a nightmare and with no idea if the regulator will allow the display anyway. Seems that if you are even close to a road, a railway, a house, a school, a factory and so on, you may well be pitching to get the work and the CAA will say NON !
It’s been a few weeks and I have not been able to respond to the many hundreds of posts and comments received on the site but I will be better, I promise , so please keep sending for me and others to enjoy.
So do I start with a rant or go to news, no I’ll go right in with the rant This season , post Andy’s accident , that few seconds of tragedy has become the 9/11 of our little world. I am not for a moment ignoring the great tragedy and loss of life at Shoreham and I am always cognisant of the fact that regulation needs to be tightened to avoid any such tragedy going forward. However, it’s sheer chaos for all in the display industry as the regulatory body (our much beloved CAA) are neither communicating nor organising but simply in “head in the sand” mode.
At recent BADA conference, as an industry we all lobbied the CAA to rethink the painful hike in charges being proposed and that was a complete waste of time, as they went ahead anyway after a sham of a consultation period. All “in the name of safety”, I don’t agree as no part will benefit anything but the coffers of the regulator. For me, it’s just a way to squeeze cash out of this poor niche industry and it will hurt. You have a wedding; want a display , well CAA fees start at £224. Have a small local event for charity, with kids and stalls and ponies, want a display well that will be £374 in CAA fees to start off before we have even left the ground.
Mr CAA said “ call us we are here to help” LoL….I have recently sent 4 emails and made multiple calls to GA section at Gatwick on an urgent matter related to a display and no chance, no one will pick the phone up or reply. I tried the top man, no use, phone rings off, no VM. I hear that 3 blokes are now deciding on permissions and exemptions ( the process by which we seek permission to fly any displays, from Farnborough down to the local fete) and not one has any specific airshow experience, only one is a pilot!. I have mates at the CAA and many are good guys but hey…this is a crazy way to administer an industry that gives pleasure to millions and attracts crowds second only to football each year.
As display pilots, we have to hold a DA (display authority) and undertake regular checks in the form of flying a display every 12 months in the presence of a DAE ( display authority examiner) . No issues at all with that but with all the heightened focus on the industry, the limited number of DAEs are shrinking as some decide to hang up their boots in fear of increased personal liability. So when my DA expires in June, I may well struggle to find a DAE who has the ticket to examine my rarer category “C” aircraft.
I used to renew typically at an airshow, often with a CAA employee sitting on the FCC ( flight control committee) in a real airshow environment, what better. However, post Shoreham, these few highly experienced guys have now all been stripped of their DAE tickets as the CAA will not allow…..just bloody stupid
So we start the season as an industry in turmoil. As a pilot operator, I have a whole raft of additional paperwork, risk assessments and the necessity to interface with not only local police, coast guard and ATC but now local authority as well, doing separate risk assessments for that body, waiting for them to send you another pile of paperwork. All this for perhaps a flypast for a local show or a display at a wedding. Plus how will we display pilots really be feeling this year, in the sure knowledge that every FDD ( flight display director) will be a bundle of nerves and poised on the red button to call “stop, stop, stop” for the smallest apparent infringement ( before accepted or a gentle rebuke on the radio ) . Any stop call will mean an instant temporary withdrawal of the DA until the CAA have decided on the merits, who knows when. Say this is the first of a multiple display weekend, then the rest of your weekend is toast, you cannot display again, think about that ?
Maybe folks like me will be so deeply focussed on the ground and what we are flying close to, God, is that a caravan, does that constitute a built up area…that we forget to fly the planes. I think airshow audiences can expect “ vanilla” perhaps more sedate, high level displays, with less content as pilots protect their arses and family homes. What a bloody shambles mates
To be honest it’s rapidly coming to the point where folks like me can’t be bothered, just too hard and stressful. How do I tell clients that have booked a Hangar 11 Collection display, that their fees are doubled since 1st April, just a nightmare and with no idea if the regulator will allow the display anyway. Seems that if you are even close to a road, a railway, a house, a school, a factory and so on, you may well be pitching to get the work and the CAA will say NON !
Andrew Haines is a political animal appointed for that reason. He is not an aviator with any specialist knowledge of his position. He is there to cover the CAA politicians "we must be seen to do something" brigade.
The CAA oversight committee dealing with these matters are political appointees, and also have no aviation knowledge, only one being a practicing display pilot.(none with recent fast jet time) His views a minority with little weight.
They are all political appointees and that is the reason for the debacle we are now seeing.
The criticism of the Shoreham FDD is shameful. A more experienced pilot with thousands of hours Hunter time would be hard to find.
The CAA oversight committee dealing with these matters are political appointees, and also have no aviation knowledge, only one being a practicing display pilot.(none with recent fast jet time) His views a minority with little weight.
They are all political appointees and that is the reason for the debacle we are now seeing.
The criticism of the Shoreham FDD is shameful. A more experienced pilot with thousands of hours Hunter time would be hard to find.
Last edited by cessnapete; 15th Apr 2016 at 16:53.
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Display logic
For many years we have had strict guidelines on how close we may fly to large groups of people those limits only to be broken for takeoff or landing. We have also had strict rules for air displays which seem to have worked well over many years since the Farnborough disaster. What then has changed?. We see large groups of people collecting where they may see the show free, as well as avoiding payment they fall outside the consideration of numbers and safety because they are not noted and expected.
The CAA finds themselves asked the question "why did you not prevent this accident and the unforeseen deaths" how shall they answer?
Risk assessment seems sensible because we use that technique in many other areas, who shall do the assessments why those suitable qualified and familiar with the activity. Who shall oversee the process why who else but the CAA and how will that be done why by using newly hired staff paid by the public attending via the organisers.
All this is painful and expensive but the approach is in line with other government activity, user pays etc. I am by no means a fan of the CAA after they lost my lifelong PPL, issued by the board of trade, but the only criticism available at the moment is why did they not set off down this path before the accident and thus reduce the dreadful outcome
There are other many other factors such as pilot qualifications and aircraft maintenance but they seem minor alongside the central issues. If we as aviators and display watchers want to survive this trauma intact we must not lose touch with the fact they we are a minority interest, no matter how large, and our masters in this have the whip hand
The CAA finds themselves asked the question "why did you not prevent this accident and the unforeseen deaths" how shall they answer?
Risk assessment seems sensible because we use that technique in many other areas, who shall do the assessments why those suitable qualified and familiar with the activity. Who shall oversee the process why who else but the CAA and how will that be done why by using newly hired staff paid by the public attending via the organisers.
All this is painful and expensive but the approach is in line with other government activity, user pays etc. I am by no means a fan of the CAA after they lost my lifelong PPL, issued by the board of trade, but the only criticism available at the moment is why did they not set off down this path before the accident and thus reduce the dreadful outcome
There are other many other factors such as pilot qualifications and aircraft maintenance but they seem minor alongside the central issues. If we as aviators and display watchers want to survive this trauma intact we must not lose touch with the fact they we are a minority interest, no matter how large, and our masters in this have the whip hand
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cessnapete
the number of active display pilots is very small; the number with recent fast jet experience is even smaller
if the committee was filled by these people we'd have them essentially administering themelves (and their mates) - which is one of the reasons we are where we are right now
You can replace "political appointees" with civil servants but that won't change the outlook of the committee - in fact it will be even more risk adverse.
Tinribs is correct
the number of active display pilots is very small; the number with recent fast jet experience is even smaller
if the committee was filled by these people we'd have them essentially administering themelves (and their mates) - which is one of the reasons we are where we are right now
You can replace "political appointees" with civil servants but that won't change the outlook of the committee - in fact it will be even more risk adverse.
Tinribs is correct