Argentine fast jet weapons choice - Falklands
Fg Off Bloggs, thanks for providing such an accurate post!
Were you involved in that OP. FRISTON on 1 Sep 1988? I'm convinced that AOC Maritime had come in with a bit of a headache one morning after too much port or something and had decided "Enough of this Glasnost stuff, time we reminded the Sovs that we're still in business!". After being informed of the whereabouts of a Sverdlov-class, he'd probably burnt up the classified phone lines to Lossie and as a result, the Bucc mates soon found themselves tasked to 'say hello' to said ship.
We were tasked to provide the VC10K support from Brize and met the Buccs just off Scotland, 'haigh-ing'* our way up track for another Bucc crew to join us after they'd jumped into the spare jet.
The simulated attack most definitely caught the Sovs with their pants down; Tony L-W sent us a nice letter afterwards saying that they'd had one fleeting radar sniff at them after they'd wired the cr@p out of the ship and were climbing back towards us for post-attack AAR.
One of my most memorable AAR trips - good to have worked with such a fine team from Lossie. We did 6:40 in a K2 and made it back to Brize on absolute minimum fuel after climbing to FL420, thanks to the skills of the sqn's most ancient, but best navigator.
And yes, even my attempts at medium toss at Wainfleet whilst struggling as a 237 OCU student were achieving results inside 300ft. Topping the student bombing ladder didn't stop me being chopped off the Bucc though...
*'haigh-ing' means to meander along track with a variety of heading changes making good the MLA, but rarely on the planned track. Named after a 101 Sqn navigator, Flt Cdr and thoroughly nice chap whose navigational techniques were......different. Also known rather irreverently as 'Admiral Zig Zag' after his time on exchange at BRNC Dartmouth
Were you involved in that OP. FRISTON on 1 Sep 1988? I'm convinced that AOC Maritime had come in with a bit of a headache one morning after too much port or something and had decided "Enough of this Glasnost stuff, time we reminded the Sovs that we're still in business!". After being informed of the whereabouts of a Sverdlov-class, he'd probably burnt up the classified phone lines to Lossie and as a result, the Bucc mates soon found themselves tasked to 'say hello' to said ship.
We were tasked to provide the VC10K support from Brize and met the Buccs just off Scotland, 'haigh-ing'* our way up track for another Bucc crew to join us after they'd jumped into the spare jet.
The simulated attack most definitely caught the Sovs with their pants down; Tony L-W sent us a nice letter afterwards saying that they'd had one fleeting radar sniff at them after they'd wired the cr@p out of the ship and were climbing back towards us for post-attack AAR.
One of my most memorable AAR trips - good to have worked with such a fine team from Lossie. We did 6:40 in a K2 and made it back to Brize on absolute minimum fuel after climbing to FL420, thanks to the skills of the sqn's most ancient, but best navigator.
And yes, even my attempts at medium toss at Wainfleet whilst struggling as a 237 OCU student were achieving results inside 300ft. Topping the student bombing ladder didn't stop me being chopped off the Bucc though...
*'haigh-ing' means to meander along track with a variety of heading changes making good the MLA, but rarely on the planned track. Named after a 101 Sqn navigator, Flt Cdr and thoroughly nice chap whose navigational techniques were......different. Also known rather irreverently as 'Admiral Zig Zag' after his time on exchange at BRNC Dartmouth
Last edited by BEagle; 10th Dec 2015 at 22:07.
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Fg Off Bloggs
To be fair, the RN learnt many many lessons during the Falklands.
I think that the pendulum has swung back the other way a bit.
After endless 50's and 60's stories about Scimitars and Buccaneers etc from my father, I am aware of the capabilities it had. That does not mean that in todays world you can plink warships at will with 100lb bombs.
There is a reason the Chinese developed the Dong Feng....
To be fair, the RN learnt many many lessons during the Falklands.
I think that the pendulum has swung back the other way a bit.
After endless 50's and 60's stories about Scimitars and Buccaneers etc from my father, I am aware of the capabilities it had. That does not mean that in todays world you can plink warships at will with 100lb bombs.
There is a reason the Chinese developed the Dong Feng....
Hi Bloggs. There is only one other poster espousing Buccaneer facts on this thread and he, too, is a QWI(B). You probably drank with him at the Blitz at HMS President last Friday. There were many sore heads strolling around Butlers Wharf on Saturday morning. 
There is only one other poster espousing Buccaneer facts on this thread
Sorry, Skeleton. Missed your important contribution. Have you seen or heard from Boggy recently? I've lost his email address. PM me if you have it. And apologies to PN and JTO.
Last edited by Darvan; 11th Dec 2015 at 06:40.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Don't worry, I have plenty of experience when it comes to weapon effects and targeting. Like quite a few on this forum I also got reasonably good at chucking practice bombs at ships by day and by night. So no, no assumptions needed.
IIRC, it went through not only the flight deck, but also 2 more decks before stopping in one of the Messes.....
Bloggs, I seem to remember that the only way 12 and 208 could routinely achieve a CEP of 'less' than 300 ft for a toss event in the mid to late 80s was to replace MT with 4 second VT. Rather than allowing the automatics to effect a release, it was more important to 'pull' a smooth 4g toss profile and allow the manual timer to generate a release pulse. Also, marking the target manually using the linear B scan mode of the Blue Parrot proved far more accurate than achieving an automatic lock. It increased the work load of the nav and resulted in more heads-in time on the radar than for monitoring the speed and rad alt but good navs could regularly get under 300 feet for a toss profile (NB, toss is different to loft). Manual radar laydown was also a challenge for a nav and a CEP of less than a 100 feet was very achievable. I see that the range hut at Rosehearty Range is now a luxury 4 bed residence for some hardy couple. Great sea view and fantastic for storm watching but just a little bit exposed for some southern softies I guess.
A well designed ship moving at 30knots can be surprisingly nimble laterally. Turn that rudder and the course will change fairly abruptly.
RN ships doing the run to Malta in WWII came under repeated dive bomber attack. They had a spotter with binoculars watching the bombs drop off the rails, and they would shout port / starboard. The ship was often able to move far enough away from the aim line in the time the bombs took to fall so that they'd miss. Of course, sheer weight of numbers would eventually count, you had to be putting up enough flak to ensure that the enemy pilots weren't keen on getting too close, and if you lost power...
San Carlos Water is a small place to manoeuvre ships. Still, the RN did a fair bit of successful bomb dodging. One of the Leander class frigates beat the Navy's speed record (they'd knocked off the engine governors on those big steam turbine plants), so I was told by one of her crew. However the Venturi effect between the ship and the shallow sea bed was strong enough to permanently bend the hull. Better bent than sunk.
RN ships doing the run to Malta in WWII came under repeated dive bomber attack. They had a spotter with binoculars watching the bombs drop off the rails, and they would shout port / starboard. The ship was often able to move far enough away from the aim line in the time the bombs took to fall so that they'd miss. Of course, sheer weight of numbers would eventually count, you had to be putting up enough flak to ensure that the enemy pilots weren't keen on getting too close, and if you lost power...
San Carlos Water is a small place to manoeuvre ships. Still, the RN did a fair bit of successful bomb dodging. One of the Leander class frigates beat the Navy's speed record (they'd knocked off the engine governors on those big steam turbine plants), so I was told by one of her crew. However the Venturi effect between the ship and the shallow sea bed was strong enough to permanently bend the hull. Better bent than sunk.
ORAC,
The incident with Illustrious and the 28lb practice bomb was caused by a glitch in the WAC software, which failed to 'lay off" for the splash target. The bomb hit plumb centre of the flight deck (between the tramlines!) and had it been a concrete 1000lber, would have exited the ship below the waterline on the stbd side. An HE bomb would have crippled the ship, even if it hadn't set off the LOX plant, which was only 30' forward!
It was a very good example of the accuracy that the SHAR was regularly achieving with the LOFT delivery and I certainly put a live 1000lber down the funnel of ?Lowestoft? - the centre of a stick of 3.
Swing the lamp!
The incident with Illustrious and the 28lb practice bomb was caused by a glitch in the WAC software, which failed to 'lay off" for the splash target. The bomb hit plumb centre of the flight deck (between the tramlines!) and had it been a concrete 1000lber, would have exited the ship below the waterline on the stbd side. An HE bomb would have crippled the ship, even if it hadn't set off the LOX plant, which was only 30' forward!
It was a very good example of the accuracy that the SHAR was regularly achieving with the LOFT delivery and I certainly put a live 1000lber down the funnel of ?Lowestoft? - the centre of a stick of 3.
Swing the lamp!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
msbbarret
I suspect a slight twist in that tale. The RN certainly has far faster ships. For a number of years HMS Cavalier held the record of fastest in the Fleet. HMS Speedy was faster still.
Now your Leander may have been fastest in the fleet or fastest in class but only in 1982 as Cavalier had long gone. Cavaliers beam/length ratio was far finer at 10:1 compared with a Leander at 8.6:1 but I am not sure whether that was the broad-beam Leander.
One of the Leander class frigates beat the Navy's speed record (they'd knocked off the engine governors on those big steam turbine plants), so I was told by one of her crew
Now your Leander may have been fastest in the fleet or fastest in class but only in 1982 as Cavalier had long gone. Cavaliers beam/length ratio was far finer at 10:1 compared with a Leander at 8.6:1 but I am not sure whether that was the broad-beam Leander.
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Ah, Tourist,
You meant 1000lbs, I know.
I never said we would! I was talking about the 70s and, unless you missed it, the Bucc went out of service in 1994!
Eh, Darvan, you have the better of me in knowing who's who on PPRuNe but all I can say on this:
is standards must have dropped since my day!
Oh, Skeleton,
See above to Darvan and, like he, standby for PM Ident.
Uh, BEagle,
Not I said the fly, after 4 tours on Blackburn's Best Bomber I had moved onto Mother Riley's Cardboard Aeroplane in 1986.
Hi, John Farley,
Well thank you, kind sir.
Oh, Tourist, I challenge you to a 'speed by second bow wave' calculation debate. You see not all of us light blue fly boys are ignorant of dark blue ways!!!! Lol!
Bloggs
That does not mean that in todays world you can plink warships at will with 100lb bombs.
I never said we would! I was talking about the 70s and, unless you missed it, the Bucc went out of service in 1994!
Eh, Darvan, you have the better of me in knowing who's who on PPRuNe but all I can say on this:
the only way 12 and 208 could routinely achieve a CEP of 'less' than 300 ft for a toss event in the mid to late 80s was to replace MT with 4 second VT.
Oh, Skeleton,
Really? Thank you for your ringing endorsement of mine and others Buccaneer knowledge.
Uh, BEagle,
Were you involved in that OP. FRISTON on 1 Sep 1988?
Hi, John Farley,
Well thank you, kind sir.
Always good to find the odd decent post on PPRuNe.
Bloggs
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TBH it's not just the RN - the Army has no really effective AA missile - rapier is very long in the tooth and is really short range
For the Falklands you might want a patriot or an S-400 that can hit things over 100km out
For the Falklands you might want a patriot or an S-400 that can hit things over 100km out
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Without giving anything away beyond open source, WTF are you talking about Harry?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45_destroyer
The RN may not have as many as we might like, but we do have decent air defence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45_destroyer
The RN may not have as many as we might like, but we do have decent air defence.
. How's the Vegas planning going?
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Tourist-Seriously Impressive intercept...@ 2.5m 15'
OK it's going to have, very possibly, the best doppler you could want, but it's reassuring that it can do what it required...
