Maritime Patrol Capability: The SDSR’s Wolf Whistle
The research ship is intended to complement / replace extant capability. It may come as a shock but there is more to Govt than just defence spending...
Ultimately its down to the RAF and RN to make a coherent case for MPA, to show why it needs funding, and why its more important than other equally pressing priorities. If it is, then it will be funded.
Ultimately its down to the RAF and RN to make a coherent case for MPA, to show why it needs funding, and why its more important than other equally pressing priorities. If it is, then it will be funded.
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Here's an idea ...
With the USAF about to vacate Mildenhall, arrange for a joint UK/US squadron of P-8s to be based there, jointly funded by the UK and US. The RAF supplies the base, including all upkeep and maintenance. USN supplies the aircraft (perhaps on a TDY basis) with USN, RAF and RN crew members. UK pays for the fuel. The base is already to US standards with the necessary bowling alley. The squadron commander is USN with a British deputy. The whole thing is declared to SACEUR, so under ultimate US control.
Everyone's a winner and a damned sight cheaper than an outright purchase.
With the USAF about to vacate Mildenhall, arrange for a joint UK/US squadron of P-8s to be based there, jointly funded by the UK and US. The RAF supplies the base, including all upkeep and maintenance. USN supplies the aircraft (perhaps on a TDY basis) with USN, RAF and RN crew members. UK pays for the fuel. The base is already to US standards with the necessary bowling alley. The squadron commander is USN with a British deputy. The whole thing is declared to SACEUR, so under ultimate US control.
Everyone's a winner and a damned sight cheaper than an outright purchase.
Here's my fear. Osborne is back to the wall over his tax credit reform. Opposition to Trident replacement is mounting - the £B 167 figure is scaring the horses. The Government has gone very quiet on F-35 costs. A few other things that you don't need me to tell you about. So how is another big spending announcement going to go over?
If existing programmes survive SDSR in tact I shall be pleasantly surprised. It's not too hard to see where savings might be made within the RAF. The Army losing "boots" is simple to politicians. Cuts to the Navy are more difficult for me to understand, but the capital commitment (carriers, some fixed wing assets and the Trident thing) is bound to be attracting attention.
It's all too much, no matter what the sensible thinkers here would wish for. If the 2% thing stands, someone needs to start getting out their calculator and find enough savings to balance the committed spendings and another new programme.
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger. I feel the same angst as you. We need an MPA.
If existing programmes survive SDSR in tact I shall be pleasantly surprised. It's not too hard to see where savings might be made within the RAF. The Army losing "boots" is simple to politicians. Cuts to the Navy are more difficult for me to understand, but the capital commitment (carriers, some fixed wing assets and the Trident thing) is bound to be attracting attention.
It's all too much, no matter what the sensible thinkers here would wish for. If the 2% thing stands, someone needs to start getting out their calculator and find enough savings to balance the committed spendings and another new programme.
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger. I feel the same angst as you. We need an MPA.
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^^
You're spot on CM. I would add that I don't think its political...as a country we are either going to (try to) balance the books or we are not. Those political entities which are not so bothered about expenditure, don't exactly have defence high up their list!
I would also add that we need some innovative thinking here...pooled resources with our allies could be one option. In this instance a NATO MPA, force as has already been mentioned on pprune, would be worth a look at.
I'm not sure looking at a cheaper airframe is going to make that bigger difference to the overall cost of restoring the capability, so somebody needs to get there thinking caps on before this falls through the net forever.
And...
...me too.
You're spot on CM. I would add that I don't think its political...as a country we are either going to (try to) balance the books or we are not. Those political entities which are not so bothered about expenditure, don't exactly have defence high up their list!
I would also add that we need some innovative thinking here...pooled resources with our allies could be one option. In this instance a NATO MPA, force as has already been mentioned on pprune, would be worth a look at.
I'm not sure looking at a cheaper airframe is going to make that bigger difference to the overall cost of restoring the capability, so somebody needs to get there thinking caps on before this falls through the net forever.
And...
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger. I feel the same angst as you. We need an MPA.
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The problem with a NATO MPA force is that it would probably be tasked by NATO and not the UK, much as in the same manner as the AEW&C Force. As such, the RAF would not have the ability to task the aircraft and would have to bid for protection through the NATO tasking system....not ideal if you need flexibility to protect your Trident replacement.
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^^
Of course, and I can think of a ton of other objections as well. But I can also see a military that comprises of the special forces, the IND & the Red Arrows and a few bands (and I'm only half joking).
We need new thinking and we need it now.
Of course, and I can think of a ton of other objections as well. But I can also see a military that comprises of the special forces, the IND & the Red Arrows and a few bands (and I'm only half joking).
We need new thinking and we need it now.
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Here's my fear. Osborne is back to the wall over his tax credit reform. Opposition to Trident replacement is mounting - the £B 167 figure is scaring the horses. The Government has gone very quiet on F-35 costs. A few other things that you don't need me to tell you about. So how is another big spending announcement going to go over?
If existing programmes survive SDSR in tact I shall be pleasantly surprised. It's not too hard to see where savings might be made within the RAF. The Army losing "boots" is simple to politicians. Cuts to the Navy are more difficult for me to understand, but the capital commitment (carriers, some fixed wing assets and the Trident thing) is bound to be attracting attention.
It's all too much, no matter what the sensible thinkers here would wish for. If the 2% thing stands, someone needs to start getting out their calculator and find enough savings to balance the committed spendings and another new programme.
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger. I feel the same angst as you. We need an MPA.
If existing programmes survive SDSR in tact I shall be pleasantly surprised. It's not too hard to see where savings might be made within the RAF. The Army losing "boots" is simple to politicians. Cuts to the Navy are more difficult for me to understand, but the capital commitment (carriers, some fixed wing assets and the Trident thing) is bound to be attracting attention.
It's all too much, no matter what the sensible thinkers here would wish for. If the 2% thing stands, someone needs to start getting out their calculator and find enough savings to balance the committed spendings and another new programme.
P.S. Don't shoot the messenger. I feel the same angst as you. We need an MPA.
At a "guess"
....'Fin doomed, 2019 scrapheap...
...High, millions, quote to go to ensure typhoon can do it all, even if appears physically, digitally, nearly, almost, perhaps, impossible.
Industry, seeing opportunity, bit like [still] useless grey flattops, says this is the plan.
See F-35.
Kershring.
MPA resurrected as a flight sim on a [high end] PC.
PS I hope I am completely out of the box with all of the above.
I feel the same angst that Courtenay has mentioned but I refer to a previous thread, the MPA will not happen and all the seedcorn guys might as well retire,or stay where they are if the hosting nation wants them.
Face facts guys - the MPA is gone.
Face facts guys - the MPA is gone.
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I predict a polite conversation between Boeing UK government. Where Boeing explains how much business it does with UK companies and that it would be a shame if they had to shift some of that business else where. Because of the need to synergisticly leverage supplier purchases in a direction that rewards those buying Boeing products.
In the end I expect UK will be getting P8 after all.
In the end I expect UK will be getting P8 after all.
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Many years ago, when I worked in this environment, we were already deep in the do-do.
No surface ship we had could keep up with a enemy nuclear sub in rough seas, so was dependent on its Helio to deliver a weapon. Helios were already getting very elderly by then, and no Sea King replacement even now.
No surface ship we had could keep up with a enemy nuclear sub in rough seas, so was dependent on its Helio to deliver a weapon. Helios were already getting very elderly by then, and no Sea King replacement even now.
no Sea King replacement even now
But I am slowly coming to the conclusion that if -and it is still a big if- an MPA is bought, it will sacrifice the ASW capability and we will have a C.295/ATR42 etc solution. I also remain to be convinced that both carriers will enter service, particularly if the government can line up a potential buyer for one of them.
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What do you think Mr Xi was offered on his recent visit??
Q&A: South China Sea dispute - BBC News
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I can't help but think that the Japanese requirements for maritime surveillance should be very much like our own. Both island nations surrounded by sea, off a major continent where there are/could be problems emerging. So surely the P1 could well be set up pretty well exactly as we would want it - as it comes off the production line?