Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
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Good grief!
Sailor, I have no doubt that what you say about looping a naval single seat Hunter is quite correct. I am equally positive that no RAF supervisor would have authorised you to do that! You need to be spot on every time, and 200' is very little margin for error when pulling out of the vertical at optimum alpha. But you survived ...
Onceapilot - a Mk11 Hunter is powered by a much more powerful Avon than the T7.
Onceapilot - a Mk11 Hunter is powered by a much more powerful Avon than the T7.
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Mk11 Hunter is powered by a much more powerful Avon than the T7.
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Never assume, check ... I stand corrected. I thought the nomenclature of GA11 would have put it later than the FR10 in development terms. I would be even less inclined to loop one at low level like that if that's all the poke it has! Also begs the question of why sailor would want more height/speed in a T8 if it has the same donk as a GA11.
Let's face it, though, this is idle banter and of no relevance to Shoreham. I agree wholeheartedly with sailor that the AAIB will, in the fullness of time, publish the full story. They will also publish the caveats, if any.
Let's face it, though, this is idle banter and of no relevance to Shoreham. I agree wholeheartedly with sailor that the AAIB will, in the fullness of time, publish the full story. They will also publish the caveats, if any.
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AAIB state
and
[=~2590' agl]
This suggests different data sources but referring to the same point in time, subject to the nature of 'initial findings'. It is remarkable to think that the Go Pro in cockpit camera survived.
To you bu$$ers drinking all my coffee, an ironic sort of "thank you"
Keep your mitts of the ground stuff - that's for the Boss and visitors only. And use the Long Life ...
Deef's - thanks mate - all input welcome and your jottings are duly archived
My overarching point remains.
Rule 1 - stay out of trouble
Rule 2 - when in trouble, depart the trouble quickly
Because for sure 100kt at 2600' is a compromised top-of-loop kinda' position in an aircraft that needs perhaps 3500' to recover through the vertical and regain S & L flight as per the DA by 500'.
As m'honorable gentleman BEag's has suggested there are possible reasons for less thrust than might have been thought [although speed / throttle setting might have been an old fashioned check on that in the run in]
Lets leave it that the risk of a fully developed stall and its secondary effect means that your manoeuvring options are limited.
Back to the whiteboard people, focus now:
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
Here's AH's office for the day [and here's a glass to his eventual recovery in hospital and to his family and support network]
This is the Gatport Airwick Hunter
Hawker Hunter T.7B. (XL591) - Gatwick Aviation Museum
For those of you who have not seen the wide range of public imagery
These are some images I exposed, one of which showing the departure from the inverted and one shortly before a high rate of sink developed
Just follow the link
The fact remains, and it is sobering in its wake up call for us all, that it all happened so very quickly. Aviation at low level remains somewhat unforgiving when things start to unravel.
A sequence of stills of the Hunter at Shoreham
Originally Posted by AAIB Bulletin 3/2015 SPECIAL
Initial findings indicate that the minimum air speed of the aircraft was approximately 100 KIAS whilst inverted at the top of the manoeuvre
Originally Posted by AAIB Bulletin 3/2015 SPECIAL
The aircraft then pitched up into a manoeuvre with both a vertical component and roll to the left, becoming almost fully inverted at the apex of the manoeuvre at a height of approximately 2,600 ft amsl.
This suggests different data sources but referring to the same point in time, subject to the nature of 'initial findings'. It is remarkable to think that the Go Pro in cockpit camera survived.
To you bu$$ers drinking all my coffee, an ironic sort of "thank you"
Keep your mitts of the ground stuff - that's for the Boss and visitors only. And use the Long Life ...Deef's - thanks mate - all input welcome and your jottings are duly archived
My overarching point remains.
Rule 1 - stay out of trouble
Rule 2 - when in trouble, depart the trouble quickly
Because for sure 100kt at 2600' is a compromised top-of-loop kinda' position in an aircraft that needs perhaps 3500' to recover through the vertical and regain S & L flight as per the DA by 500'.
As m'honorable gentleman BEag's has suggested there are possible reasons for less thrust than might have been thought [although speed / throttle setting might have been an old fashioned check on that in the run in]
Lets leave it that the risk of a fully developed stall and its secondary effect means that your manoeuvring options are limited.
Back to the whiteboard people, focus now:
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
Here's AH's office for the day [and here's a glass to his eventual recovery in hospital and to his family and support network]
This is the Gatport Airwick Hunter
Hawker Hunter T.7B. (XL591) - Gatwick Aviation Museum
For those of you who have not seen the wide range of public imagery
These are some images I exposed, one of which showing the departure from the inverted and one shortly before a high rate of sink developed
Just follow the link
The fact remains, and it is sobering in its wake up call for us all, that it all happened so very quickly. Aviation at low level remains somewhat unforgiving when things start to unravel.
A sequence of stills of the Hunter at Shoreham
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Also begs the question of why sailor would want more height/speed in a T8 if it has the same donk as a GA11
Altimeter position
If that cockpit is typical then rolling left means you hide the altimeter with the stick. Planning the figure with the rolling element going downwards (as was done in a prior show) or rolling right would have been a work around (of course rolling right would have meant a change in the sequence direction etc so that wouldn't have been an easy change - although of course given none of it can be "made up" on the day).
I wouldn't be so sure that Gate heights / speed don't feature prominently in the AAIB final report.
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From the AAIB report.
"It commenced a gentle climbing right turn to 1,600 ft amsl, executing a Derry turn to the left and then commenced a descending left turn to 200 ft amsl,..."
"It commenced a gentle climbing right turn to 1,600 ft amsl, executing a Derry turn to the left and then commenced a descending left turn to 200 ft amsl,..."
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The Shoreham hunter had a few mod cons fitted. Like a GPS, clock, UHF/VHF radio, etc...
I would post picture from the hunter cockpit just before AH took it to Bruntingthorpe 2 weeks previously, but uploading photos on prune defeats me.
I would post picture from the hunter cockpit just before AH took it to Bruntingthorpe 2 weeks previously, but uploading photos on prune defeats me.
wiggy, he has a bee in his bonnet about his preference for doing HASELL checks before academic steep turns. Over on the instructor forum he has been told by many others that he's wrong, but then starts spouting TEM and other headshrinker-horse$hit to justify his singular opinion.
Back to the thread, sorry but I don't have the weights of the T7 and GA11 to hand. But the GA11 must be rather like a Valley GT6 except with the 100-ser engine. No guns or sabrinas, so significantly lighter and more slippery than the barge.
Back to the thread, sorry but I don't have the weights of the T7 and GA11 to hand. But the GA11 must be rather like a Valley GT6 except with the 100-ser engine. No guns or sabrinas, so significantly lighter and more slippery than the barge.
Last edited by BEagle; 9th Sep 2015 at 16:17.