Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Old 9th Sep 2015, 03:57
  #701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 66
Gate heights

I wouldn't be so sure that Gate heights / speed don't feature prominently in the AAIB final report.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 07:06
  #702 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Class D airspace
Age: 64
Posts: 105
AAIB state

Originally Posted by AAIB Bulletin 3/2015 SPECIAL
Initial findings indicate that the minimum air speed of the aircraft was approximately 100 KIAS whilst inverted at the top of the manoeuvre
and

Originally Posted by AAIB Bulletin 3/2015 SPECIAL
The aircraft then pitched up into a manoeuvre with both a vertical component and roll to the left, becoming almost fully inverted at the apex of the manoeuvre at a height of approximately 2,600 ft amsl.
[=~2590' agl]

This suggests different data sources but referring to the same point in time, subject to the nature of 'initial findings'. It is remarkable to think that the Go Pro in cockpit camera survived.

To you bu$$ers drinking all my coffee, an ironic sort of "thank you" Keep your mitts of the ground stuff - that's for the Boss and visitors only. And use the Long Life ...

Deef's - thanks mate - all input welcome and your jottings are duly archived

My overarching point remains.

Rule 1 - stay out of trouble
Rule 2 - when in trouble, depart the trouble quickly

Because for sure 100kt at 2600' is a compromised top-of-loop kinda' position in an aircraft that needs perhaps 3500' to recover through the vertical and regain S & L flight as per the DA by 500'.

As m'honorable gentleman BEag's has suggested there are possible reasons for less thrust than might have been thought [although speed / throttle setting might have been an old fashioned check on that in the run in]

Lets leave it that the risk of a fully developed stall and its secondary effect means that your manoeuvring options are limited.

Back to the whiteboard people, focus now:

Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'
.

Here's AH's office for the day [and here's a glass to his eventual recovery in hospital and to his family and support network]

This is the Gatport Airwick Hunter

Hawker Hunter T.7B. (XL591) - Gatwick Aviation Museum


For those of you who have not seen the wide range of public imagery

These are some images I exposed, one of which showing the departure from the inverted and one shortly before a high rate of sink developed

Just follow the link

The fact remains, and it is sobering in its wake up call for us all, that it all happened so very quickly. Aviation at low level remains somewhat unforgiving when things start to unravel.

A sequence of stills of the Hunter at Shoreham
Reheat On is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:09
  #703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Posts: 1,611
Also begs the question of why sailor would want more height/speed in a T8 if it has the same donk as a GA11
Because the T-bird is about 1300lbs heavier if I recall the numbers correctly. Beags will no doubt be along shortly with the exact figure.
Wingswinger is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:35
  #704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,097
Altimeter position

If that cockpit is typical then rolling left means you hide the altimeter with the stick. Planning the figure with the rolling element going downwards (as was done in a prior show) or rolling right would have been a work around (of course rolling right would have meant a change in the sequence direction etc so that wouldn't have been an easy change - although of course given none of it can be "made up" on the day).
Pittsextra is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:49
  #705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,701
I wouldn't be so sure that Gate heights / speed don't feature prominently in the AAIB final report.
There are still several airworthy T7s on the UK register, so I would imagine the AAIB will make use of one to explore just that.
212man is online now  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:53
  #706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 866
From the AAIB report.

"It commenced a gentle climbing right turn to 1,600 ft amsl, executing a Derry turn to the left and then commenced a descending left turn to 200 ft amsl,..."
One good thing might come out of this for the armchair experts is the Beagle might understand why some insructors still prefer to teach HASELL before steep turning, if only to remind themselves and the student that height is insurance!
Pull what is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:58
  #707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,844
pull what

You've lost this ex-QFI and armchair expert with that one, HASELL checks before a Derry I can understand....
wiggy is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 14:39
  #708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 66
The Shoreham hunter had a few mod cons fitted. Like a GPS, clock, UHF/VHF radio, etc...
I would post picture from the hunter cockpit just before AH took it to Bruntingthorpe 2 weeks previously, but uploading photos on prune defeats me.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 15:13
  #709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,701
wiggy, he has a bee in his bonnet about his preference for doing HASELL checks before academic steep turns. Over on the instructor forum he has been told by many others that he's wrong, but then starts spouting TEM and other headshrinker-horse$hit to justify his singular opinion.

Back to the thread, sorry but I don't have the weights of the T7 and GA11 to hand. But the GA11 must be rather like a Valley GT6 except with the 100-ser engine. No guns or sabrinas, so significantly lighter and more slippery than the barge.

Last edited by BEagle; 9th Sep 2015 at 16:17.
BEagle is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 15:34
  #710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,284
Originally Posted by 212man View Post
There are still several airworthy T7s on the UK register, so I would imagine the AAIB will make use of one to explore just that.
There is still one on the Mil register as well (HHA's twin seater) which won't be directly affected by the grounding (Is it still valid?)
Davef68 is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 16:43
  #711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Squalor
Posts: 108
...Pitts

and you can't see the AI or the compass when straight and level.


Folks shorter than 2ft 6ins shouldn't be allowed to fly
Wetstart Dryrun is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 16:43
  #712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,701
Unload, spot roll out to nearest horizon, pitch on buffet nibble to level flight.
BEagle is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 16:59
  #713 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Squalor
Posts: 108
...and full power.

I seem to recall 'glide recovery' was a sequence in 'Stalling 1'
Wetstart Dryrun is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 18:36
  #714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,701
Careful with moving the throttle to max thrust from a 100-ser Avon if close to the buffet nibble though!
BEagle is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 20:55
  #715 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 98
HHA's is a T8, currently engineless.
Lynxman is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:15
  #716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 413
Enough of all this, any idea how our man is doing in hospital?
TBM-Legend is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:28
  #717 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,590
He is conscious but still in intensive care at an undisclosed location.

It is a measure of the regard in which he is held that everybody is keeping very quiet about where he is and how he is.
M.Mouse is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:05
  #718 (permalink)  
O-P
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 192
MM,

I hope it stays that way. Get well fella.
O-P is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:21
  #719 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Sunny Side
Posts: 48
It is a measure of the regard in which he is held that everybody is keeping very quiet about where he is and how he is.
I suspect it is more than just that MM. I'm not sure many of us really know what to say or how he will feel when he comes around and finds out what has happened. He will have so much more than just physical injuries to recover from.

I wish him all the best for a full recovery.

S-D
salad-dodger is online now  
Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:40
  #720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Salisbury UK
Posts: 3
Let's hope AH isn't reading this 37 page ego trip.
meteorian is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.