Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Old 29th Aug 2015, 08:36
  #521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
BEagle, yes I agree totally with what you say there.

Jay and, I'm sure you are right about a sell-by date, but I expect that there will be other physiological factors that would make one unfit for the high-g, high-performance cockpit before G-tolerance in most cases. As pilots doing aeros probably don't go in a centrifuge every year (most probably ever) they're unlikely to be aware of when their g-tolerance starts to change. As BEgle says, this type of aeros isn't going to expose anyone to that much g anyway.

Also remember that that there are lots of other factors that are more likely to affect this: dehydration, fatigue, medication, minor illness among others. Most professionals, especially those with a fast jet background will have a pretty good understanding of these things.

Again, too early to try to apply any of these things to this accident. Rule nothing in, rule nothing out.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 08:43
  #522 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
I am in a part of world where the servers don't allow access to many online papers and the news channels have stopped discussing the accident, question.

How are the recoveries of Andy and those injured progressing ?
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 08:47
  #523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
I don't think you're missing anything on that topic, ATC.

BTW, if you need help plugging in to the servers from overseas, try Zen Mate - there's a small subscription now for you want to do. Other, similar apps are available.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 08:52
  #524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,996
I think we can probably apply the same logic to the aircraft. I saw a wonderful display from the "vintage" vulcan this year at RIAT, but also recall seeing horrendous footage of a "serving" vulcan falling apart in mid-air.
If you mean the mid air break up of VX770 at Syerston in 1958 it was hardly 'serving'. It was doing flight testing of the Rolls Royce Conway engines and so was not a production standard aircraft with a normal release to service.



Sadly, I believe it killed 3x AVRO test pilots and 1x RAF navigator in the aircraft and then on the ground 3x RAF personnel in the runway caravan.
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 08:56
  #525 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Thank you CM for the update.
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 09:10
  #526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,785
VX770 did not "fall apart". If you bother to read the report you will find that the aircraft suffered structural failure after severe overstress and gross exceedence of its limited release.

OAP
Onceapilot is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 09:19
  #527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,714
Leon and Onceapilot, '770 had very probably been overstressed beforehand by Rolls Royce (and perhaps RAF pilots) during repeated aerobatics, such as were frequently seen over Hucknall after RR engine trials. One pilot is thought to have looped the aircraft, although barrel rolls and rolls-off-the-top were more normal.

As the first prototype, '770 wasn't as strong as production Vulcans and RR didn't conduct the internal leading edge checks which Avros did after any aerobatic flights.

Neither is it by any means certain that the Syerston accident was caused by the pilot either flying too fast or rolling and pulling - he could have been flying within the planned flight parameters but in an aeroplane which had been severely damaged by others. It was all too easy to find 'pilot error' as the 'obvious' cause in those days.....

On the subject of 'g' tolerance, I know of a chap who's over 60, yet regularly flies to high 'g' limits in fast jet aircraft.... Perhaps old age and treachery does indeed always overcome youth and skill?
BEagle is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 10:05
  #528 (permalink)  
aox
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
I am in a part of world where the servers don't allow access to many online papers and the news channels have stopped discussing the accident, question.

How are the recoveries of Andy and those injured progressing ?
Not much information.

Pilot transferred to unnamed specialist hospital 3 or 4 days ago, that's about all.

Still only about half the deceased victims formally named (edit 8th just named). DNA tests required for some ...

Road still closed, and once open may be one lane only westbound for a while.
aox is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 14:25
  #529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lincs
Posts: 203
A great many on here evidently have no clue - not unreasonably given the specialist nature of the discipline - and therefore I think it IS helpful to rule out some of the wilder theories that serve to call into question the safety of other, similar or even unrelated, aviation activities without good reason.

I am not suggesting that we lay out all of the details that an experienced eye can elicit from the evidence available so far - for a start, we understand the difference between causal factors and blame - whereas I have no confidence that the press does. For that reason alone, I suspect that those of us who can make logical conclusions will not post them in open forum - which, unfortunately, leaves a gap in the market for those who do not have the experience to deduce but are prepared to speculate - such as the priceless Mr Sharp.

However, please cease with the 'it is not possible to draw any conclusions'... Many of us have grown up with the understanding that any speculation is unhelpful in a time when accidents happened without video - and often even without witnesses, and when the priority was to inform NoK, formally, as quickly as possible - often in circumstances of some confusion. The circumstances of Shoreham are entirely different - and the public have a very legitimate interest in what went wrong - one that, arguably, exceeds our traditional sensitivity to anything that might be regarded as critical of individuals.

In this instance, I don't think it is unhelpful or unreasonable to observe that the aircraft was pitching throughout the recovery - therefore AH was providing a control input and g-loc CAN very reasonably be ruled out. Deduction, not speculation.

CM - I know you will respect the sensitivity so I'll PM you with more later, to both demonstrate my restraint as well as illustrate what CAN be ruled in/out, and what cannot...
Captain Kirk is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 14:51
  #530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stowmarket
Age: 60
Posts: 16
BEagle.
ΔH, Avon-powered Hunters were prone to engine surge when the guns were fired, due to ingestion of muzzle gases. The only solution was to 'dip' the fuel supplied to the engine whilst the guns were firing, which briefly reduced the fuel supply during the half second or so during which the trigger was pressed.Probably only a problem if all 4 guns on the SS Hunters were fired together, but fitted to all Avon-powered Hunters nonetheless.
Almost. The Gun dip and HP pump isolate system were fitted only to the 100 series powered A/C.

The 207 didn't suffer from as many airflow problems and didn't require either system.

BTW. The take off looked and sounded exactly right too. That climb out could have been at Penycwm. The engine sounded healthy right to the end.

Sorry to Nit Pick.
Mrmungus is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 17:16
  #531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,714
Thanks for the gen., Mrmungus! I knew that the F6 and FGA9 didn't have the HPPIS, but I didn't know that gundip wasn't required for 200-ser Avon-engine Hunters.

Never too old to learn something new!
BEagle is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 17:58
  #532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Posts: 1,611
In this instance, I don't think it is unhelpful or unreasonable to observe that the aircraft was pitching throughout the recovery - therefore AH was providing a control input and g-loc CAN very reasonably be ruled out. Deduction, not speculation.
I'm not so sure it can. As both Courtney Mil and I have commented in earlier posts, G-LOC is insidious. Factors which can erode a human body's tolerance to G include fatigue, hangovers, minor ailments or recovering from them, medication to treat such ailments and whether or not the body in question has been adequately fed in the period immediately prior to the flight. Because of this the G-LOC may occur, not during the application of positive G force in a manoeuvre, but some time after it, when the peak G has passed. I have personal experience of this. It is entirely possible the AH may have suffered G-LOC at the top of his manoeuvre or as the Hunter's nose was well down. This is a plausible explanation for the apparent lack of pitching until it was, fatally, too late.
Wingswinger is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 18:17
  #533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: oxon
Posts: 6
I didn't actually think he pulled a lot of g. Looked quite lazy and smooth. Too old to fly I think is when you fail the medical.
hairey is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 19:12
  #534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,996
I concur, to me I think it was a factor of a modified 1/4 clover and then an oblique pull through that meant that the normal gate height would probably have been too low. Normally a 1/4 clover would be from 90 degs from the crowdline but the position of Lancing and Lancing College make this difficult. That's always been my opinion of civilian authorised displays compared to military authorised displays - the military ones are 'set piece' and not for modification, whereas, the civilian displays can be modified as required by the pilot. I remember watching a very experienced ex-mil pilot put an extra roll in his display over-sea and he did not recover. The UK military PDA regime is far more restrictive and modification to the authorised 'full', 'rolling' and 'flat' displays is not allowed as far as I'm aware.

That's my theory, anyway. Don't think it will be G-loc or overstress looking at the numerous videos. If he lost his engine at the top of the vertical manoeuvre then he would have rolled out and then gone for a FL towards the field, if he lost the engine going downwards then he would have been at idle anyway. But, hey, here's hoping the AAIB release something soon to stop speculation and actually report facts - rather than our best guesses. Of course something could have gone wrong with the jet, but I don't see any significant evidence to support that.

I do think the CAA have been right to enforce the restrictions they have - I don"t see them as 'knee jerk' as some have opined.

Sorry if my speculation upsets anyone. I do know one of those killed and one who is seriously injured so I think I am within my moral rights to comment 1 week later.

LJ
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 19:36
  #535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,015
Age in itself is not a factor in a pilot's ability to do aerobatic manoeuvers in a fast jet - being medically and physically fit enough and practiced in coping with the rigors of the manoeuvers is.

All the pilots in the US "Starfighters" Team - flying a much higher performance aircraft than the Hunter - must be in their 60s/70s from their bios:

KVDV, Inc. - Starfighters Crew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ6K_U1zPi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwIdAXlgPg
RAFEngO74to09 is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 19:36
  #536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Doncaster
Posts: 470
For what it's worth Leon, you've got my vote . . .
Brian W May is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 19:54
  #537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 54
Posts: 285
Brian

Yes, Occam's Razor is normally the way that these things play out.

CPL Clott
Corporal Clott is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 21:08
  #538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
VX770 did not "fall apart". If you bother to read the report you will find that the aircraft suffered structural failure after severe overstress and gross exceedence of its limited release.

OAP
Leon/OAP

Not that one, and apologies for not having a reference - but I remember being shown a video during a lecture of some sort, where a number of panels and possibly parts of the air brake detached. My memory is not clear but I'm sure it was a serving Vulcan - as not long afterwards I attended an airshow and watched a Vulcan display. I'll try and dig out further info.
Bigbux is offline  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 21:50
  #539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dorset,UK
Posts: 398
Daily Telegraph reports that the AAIB discovered a flaw in the Hunter, in 1998 called an HPPIS. If operated with the throttle open would cause 'an almost instantaneous destruction of the engine'.

What is an HPPIS?

I have never heard of it. It seems that this has been resonsible for 20 Hunter crashes.

Looks to me like two journalists have got their knickers in a twist and mis-quoted the true facts!
Compass Call is online now  
Old 29th Aug 2015, 22:02
  #540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swindonshire
Posts: 1,948
High Pressure Pump Isolate Switch, I think.

I'm guessing the Telegraph journalists are talking about the loss of G-HHUN:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...pdf_502233.pdf
Archimedes is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.