Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
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Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
Ok fellow Pruners, genuine question here.
Why does the RAF & RN insist that all of their driver dudes are commissioned, where as the Pongo's will take NCO pilots?
I know that perhaps Sqn Ldr Jeeves would not be too happy sharing his precious aircrew crew room with someone who dare not be involved in passing the port at each mess night, but seriously, what's the REAL need to have the RAF/RN crews commissioned?
Why does the RAF & RN insist that all of their driver dudes are commissioned, where as the Pongo's will take NCO pilots?
I know that perhaps Sqn Ldr Jeeves would not be too happy sharing his precious aircrew crew room with someone who dare not be involved in passing the port at each mess night, but seriously, what's the REAL need to have the RAF/RN crews commissioned?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I would link the threads, but I'm just too lazy, suffice to say this subject has had many an outing on this forum if you just dive into the search function. The conclusion is always the same - it just depends on which Mess you are looking from.
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There are a number of papers in the Staff College library about that very topic, mainly about rotary AAC/RAF transfers of assets.
Most draw the conclusion that while it is possible, and may in fact be a good idea, the disruption and upheaval caused by such a move considerably outweighed the minimal operational benefits and cost savings.
The ones I found were all written by Army officers.
Most draw the conclusion that while it is possible, and may in fact be a good idea, the disruption and upheaval caused by such a move considerably outweighed the minimal operational benefits and cost savings.
The ones I found were all written by Army officers.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MGD, you haven't, where have you been?
Should it be linked to VC10 sqn ldrs.
Should it be linked to VC10 sqn ldrs.
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Out of sequence
I am surprised that this topic has come up so soon.
I thought the "Should we bin the Red Arrows to save cash" was next on the list, followed by two or three Nimrod threads then a "Sea Harriers were better than GR4s" and THEN the "NCO Aircrew" question.
I thought the "Should we bin the Red Arrows to save cash" was next on the list, followed by two or three Nimrod threads then a "Sea Harriers were better than GR4s" and THEN the "NCO Aircrew" question.
Don't think that you'll save much on pay:
Fg Off to Flt Lt pay range - £31k to £46k with RRP(fly) of £14-£38 per day
Sgt to WO pay range - £34k to £49k with RRP(fly) of £7-£20 per day
So why bother otherwise?
LJ
Fg Off to Flt Lt pay range - £31k to £46k with RRP(fly) of £14-£38 per day
Sgt to WO pay range - £34k to £49k with RRP(fly) of £7-£20 per day
So why bother otherwise?
LJ
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Plus ça Change, plus C'est La Même Chose.
tqmatch,
As one of (I suspect) the very last who "had a foot in both camps" - I had a year as a Sgt-Pilot, then two more commissioned in WWII - perhaps I might add a word or two.
I was told that, pre-war, the idea was that the Officer was there primarily to command troops. In the case of the RAF ("the best flying club in England"), he flew aircraft more or less as a recreation in his spare time. As there wasn't all that much flying to be done, it worked out all right. The Navy was of a like mind: an Admiral got into hot water for voicing his belief that: "A Naval Officer's ability to fly an aeroplane is of no more interest to the Navy than a Bank clerk's ability to play rugger at weekends is to the Bank".
Came the War, and suddenly there was an awful lot of flying to be done, and you would need a lot of Officers to do it - far more than you needed to issue the orders. Some bright spark thought: "Why does a pilot need to be an Officer ?". Of course, he doesn't, and Trade Group 1 (Pilot) was established.
It was obvious: when you got your wings, the "Lord's Anointed" from Cranwell and a few public schoolboys would be commissioned. The hoi-polloi went into T.G.1 and promoted Sergeant (F/S after one year, two [if you were still alive] to Warrant Officer). We were not alone in that, Germany and many other European countries had Corporal Pilots as well.
The US had "Flight Schools" (min: two years' College reqd for entry). You were graded as an Aviation Cadet during flying training, with your wings came 2nd Lieutenant's gold bars. The US offered the RAF places (the "Arnold Scheme") at these Schools from mid'41 to '43. We sent out 7,000+ LACs from ITWs, and got 4,000+ pilots back (the "washout" rate [40%] sounds enormous, but it was on a par with their own Cadets). Of the RAF LACs who got their dollar-silver USAAC wings, I would guess no more than 20% of us were commissioned by the RAF, the rest came back as Sergeants. (There was a rumour that we were granted honorary commissions as 2/Lts in the USAAC ! - but that lacks credence).
When I joined 110 Sqdn in India at the end of '42, the only Pilot officer on "A" Flight was (acting) Flt Lt Topley (the Flight Commander), he had one F/O Nav, all the rest of us (8-9 Pilots) were Sergeants. You must not think that the Sgt-Pilot in Britain during the war was held in any lesser esteem than his P/O counterpart. Everybody knew that many of the BoB pilots were Sergeants, they'd done as well as the officers. Socially, in class-ridden Britain, their wings "ennobled" them: a young lady of such blue blood that she could not possibly associate with the "brutal and licentious soldiery". would consent, faute de mieux, to go to the Ball on the arm of a Sgt-Pilot or Nav or AG.
In Calcutta, the Grand Hotel would allow through its portals officers - and aircrew SNCOs (but no other Sergeants !)
The Sgt-Aircrew was much better off, too - as a Sgt I drew 13/6 a day, had a tiny Mess Bill and no exs. An Acting Pilot Officer on Probation, I believe got 11/10 to start, but had a proper Mess Bill and all the exs. I had no responsibilities - I don't think I issued a single command in my whole year.
The Sgt-Pilots continued post-war, there was a half-baked idea in the '50s to remove the anomaly by creating a separate SNCO rank structure ("The Hennessy Four-Star System" - P4, P3, P2 and Master Pilot), with no powers of command (on the ground). It was universally derided, and did not last long, but its last traces (the Master Pilots/Navs/Sigs etc) were around for quite a while until they all died out.
Then we went over to the all-officer Pilot/Nav system we have now (and the one we started with). End of story.
Danny42C
"The rank is but the guinea's stamp - a Man's a Man for A' That !"
(Burns)
(Burns)
As one of (I suspect) the very last who "had a foot in both camps" - I had a year as a Sgt-Pilot, then two more commissioned in WWII - perhaps I might add a word or two.
I was told that, pre-war, the idea was that the Officer was there primarily to command troops. In the case of the RAF ("the best flying club in England"), he flew aircraft more or less as a recreation in his spare time. As there wasn't all that much flying to be done, it worked out all right. The Navy was of a like mind: an Admiral got into hot water for voicing his belief that: "A Naval Officer's ability to fly an aeroplane is of no more interest to the Navy than a Bank clerk's ability to play rugger at weekends is to the Bank".
Came the War, and suddenly there was an awful lot of flying to be done, and you would need a lot of Officers to do it - far more than you needed to issue the orders. Some bright spark thought: "Why does a pilot need to be an Officer ?". Of course, he doesn't, and Trade Group 1 (Pilot) was established.
It was obvious: when you got your wings, the "Lord's Anointed" from Cranwell and a few public schoolboys would be commissioned. The hoi-polloi went into T.G.1 and promoted Sergeant (F/S after one year, two [if you were still alive] to Warrant Officer). We were not alone in that, Germany and many other European countries had Corporal Pilots as well.
The US had "Flight Schools" (min: two years' College reqd for entry). You were graded as an Aviation Cadet during flying training, with your wings came 2nd Lieutenant's gold bars. The US offered the RAF places (the "Arnold Scheme") at these Schools from mid'41 to '43. We sent out 7,000+ LACs from ITWs, and got 4,000+ pilots back (the "washout" rate [40%] sounds enormous, but it was on a par with their own Cadets). Of the RAF LACs who got their dollar-silver USAAC wings, I would guess no more than 20% of us were commissioned by the RAF, the rest came back as Sergeants. (There was a rumour that we were granted honorary commissions as 2/Lts in the USAAC ! - but that lacks credence).
When I joined 110 Sqdn in India at the end of '42, the only Pilot officer on "A" Flight was (acting) Flt Lt Topley (the Flight Commander), he had one F/O Nav, all the rest of us (8-9 Pilots) were Sergeants. You must not think that the Sgt-Pilot in Britain during the war was held in any lesser esteem than his P/O counterpart. Everybody knew that many of the BoB pilots were Sergeants, they'd done as well as the officers. Socially, in class-ridden Britain, their wings "ennobled" them: a young lady of such blue blood that she could not possibly associate with the "brutal and licentious soldiery". would consent, faute de mieux, to go to the Ball on the arm of a Sgt-Pilot or Nav or AG.
In Calcutta, the Grand Hotel would allow through its portals officers - and aircrew SNCOs (but no other Sergeants !)
The Sgt-Aircrew was much better off, too - as a Sgt I drew 13/6 a day, had a tiny Mess Bill and no exs. An Acting Pilot Officer on Probation, I believe got 11/10 to start, but had a proper Mess Bill and all the exs. I had no responsibilities - I don't think I issued a single command in my whole year.
The Sgt-Pilots continued post-war, there was a half-baked idea in the '50s to remove the anomaly by creating a separate SNCO rank structure ("The Hennessy Four-Star System" - P4, P3, P2 and Master Pilot), with no powers of command (on the ground). It was universally derided, and did not last long, but its last traces (the Master Pilots/Navs/Sigs etc) were around for quite a while until they all died out.
Then we went over to the all-officer Pilot/Nav system we have now (and the one we started with). End of story.
Danny42C
Last edited by Danny42C; 18th Aug 2015 at 08:07. Reason: Add a few words.
Danny
A very good summation.
It was exactly same same here in Oz. I guess you would expect that as the RAF was modelled off the RAAF. Or was it the other way around? Always get confused on that !
Also after WWII our NCO aircrew went briefly through that similar P1, P2, P3, P4 debacle. By about 1960, all pilots and navs commissioned.
(Sigs a little later in the mid 60s, when they became AEOs - which was subsequently switched back to NCO AEAs.)
A very good summation.
It was exactly same same here in Oz. I guess you would expect that as the RAF was modelled off the RAAF. Or was it the other way around? Always get confused on that !
Also after WWII our NCO aircrew went briefly through that similar P1, P2, P3, P4 debacle. By about 1960, all pilots and navs commissioned.
(Sigs a little later in the mid 60s, when they became AEOs - which was subsequently switched back to NCO AEAs.)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Oh dear Danny, a sensible answer. 
Thanks for that it answered a question i was going to ask.
Now, sadly, another serious question: drone pilots.
How does their pay stack up with flying pilots?
Supplementary question, could they cross over?
Thanks for that it answered a question i was going to ask.
Now, sadly, another serious question: drone pilots.
How does their pay stack up with flying pilots?
Supplementary question, could they cross over?
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For what it's worth ..............
In my opinion. I always thought it was about command; the whole point of the RAF is to fly things, the commanders at all levels in flying squadrons need to be aviators of some sort. To develop the best commanders, you need a large pool of potential candidates, if you introduce Sgt Pilots into it, you would be diluting that pool.
As others have already said, there is no clear financial saving, so what benefits would be gained?
As others have already said, there is no clear financial saving, so what benefits would be gained?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Army Mover, the RAF toyed with the command/erk system back in the 50s.
The anointed went to Sleaford Tech and were awarded a General List commission to age 55. The hoi polloi went to boot camp for 4 months, taught to use a knife and fork and march in straight lines and then awarded a commission on the Supplementary list. Age for age they could then revel in being more senior to their 'betters' at Sleaford Tech for the next 5 years. Thereafter, if they passed the B exam, they would remain ad flt lt to age 38 (originally 41). If they didn't pass the B they became permanent fg off free of all responsibilities. It was even possible to have a flying commission for just 5 years- just enough time for a full 3 year tour!
Their tech superiors, even as flt lt, got flt cdr slots and sqn ldr in their 30s. The except was those selected as ADC who, if they didn't cut it, might languish as flt lt to age 55 or become VSO themselves.
With the regular reductions in numbers of aircrew the pool, as you say, shrank and the supplementary list was abolished.
The anointed went to Sleaford Tech and were awarded a General List commission to age 55. The hoi polloi went to boot camp for 4 months, taught to use a knife and fork and march in straight lines and then awarded a commission on the Supplementary list. Age for age they could then revel in being more senior to their 'betters' at Sleaford Tech for the next 5 years. Thereafter, if they passed the B exam, they would remain ad flt lt to age 38 (originally 41). If they didn't pass the B they became permanent fg off free of all responsibilities. It was even possible to have a flying commission for just 5 years- just enough time for a full 3 year tour!
Their tech superiors, even as flt lt, got flt cdr slots and sqn ldr in their 30s. The except was those selected as ADC who, if they didn't cut it, might languish as flt lt to age 55 or become VSO themselves.
With the regular reductions in numbers of aircrew the pool, as you say, shrank and the supplementary list was abolished.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 18th Aug 2015 at 08:37.
Gentleman Aviator
In addition to the "not much difference in pay" argument, some of the papers mentioned before also note that commissioned pilots serve - on average IIRC - about 5 years longer.
Now about the Nimrods/Reds/Harriers.......
Now about the Nimrods/Reds/Harriers.......
Danny, as usual an excellent and informative reply.
You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
Incidentally, I wonder what happened to all those P1 and P2 etc sleeve badges - in 30 years of trading in militaria I only ever saw one set of them at a fair, and the price being asked was well into 3 figures
You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?
Incidentally, I wonder what happened to all those P1 and P2 etc sleeve badges - in 30 years of trading in militaria I only ever saw one set of them at a fair, and the price being asked was well into 3 figures