APO - what is the substantive rank?

[Innominate]

What was so special with the VC10 that needed a Sqd Ldr to drive one?

I've heard it said that the idea was to prevent Flt Lt VC 10 captains defecting to the airlines who were operating the type.

[Exascot]

What was so special with the VC10 that a Sqd (sic) Ldr to drive one?

Just because it was but still an odd decision.

[Biggus]

It was nothing to do with flying the aircraft. I was always told that it was so the Captain had more "clout" for sorting out issues on the ground while down the route, help avoid the aircraft being delayed etc - don't forget there was still quite a few remnants of Empire left in the late 60s.

[ICM]

Even 35 years after the Air Force Board decision of 1968 was reversed, it seems it's still necessary to explain that it was brought about in an attempt to rectify a persistent undermanning situation. (If you have Jeff Jefford's "Observers and Navigators," you'll find it explained at length on p 219.) It was originally aimed at both VC10 and Comet fleets - but with so few Comets in service, and that service terminated in 1976 as the Transport Force was reduced by 50%, it became effectively something that was seen by the world at large as something exclusive to 10 Squadron. (It's a mystery to me still that the decision was never applied to the V-Force.)

As a retention measure, it was almost certainly a failure and, regardless of its intentions, 10 Sqn captains took their share of the post-75 compulsory redundancy scheme aimed primarily at 'reduced forces.' The impression that was abroad amongst most of the Service as a result of the decision was by no means lost on successive Sqn COs but, as it had started as an AFB decision, all attempts in the 70s to have it reviewed were rebuffed accordingly. Circumstances must have changed by 1980 when the scheme was rescinded.

And as it happens, the Specialist Aircrew scheme grew out of the same undermanning concerns of the later-60s. History may record that idea as having attracted wider popularity.

[binbrook]

Re the Green Shield VC10 captains, was it true that the station magazine at one of the transport bases (Brize?) had accepted a QANTAS ad for pilots? Date c1965 - about the time of the Waddington dinner, and the pay award which gave us less than the rise in the rent of a quarter.

[Wander00]

Looks like they should have made VC10 captains gp capts, then they would have had the money, and looked like Captains too....hat, coat..........

[oxenos]

QANTAS ad for pilots?

Qantas wantus!

[Pom Pax]

TTN wrote

2ANS insisted that student navs called all staff "sir"

Our course instructors were Bill, Fred & Brian from day one. They called us by our first names except occasionally when they wished to differentiate between Brian J & Brian S. Likewise very rarely were they ever addressed as "Sir". They said that was the way they wanted it and I don't think it lessened our respect of them.

I would like to hear Pontious' memory of this subject as his 2ANS time was between yours (TTN) and mine to put a time line on this change.

[Wander00]

Certainly our QFIs at the Towers (including the two FS pilot QFIs) 64/65 and at Valley 1966 were "Sir". My QFI at Bassingbourn was "Robin"

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I got substitution pay covering for my flight commander while she was on ops, then took over from her in theatre as Det Co, but with acting unpaid rank.

I got paid more as a Flt Lt at home than I did as a Sqn Ldr on Ops.

[Lima Juliet]

Back to the original thread - surely the substantive rank of Acting Pilot Officer is Pilot Officer? I seem to remember that prior to being an APO that I was in the London Gazette as an AC.

LJ

[ExAscoteer]

I was certainly Gazetted as an APO so I would assume that that is the substantive rank.

Thet Wiki article referenced above is somewhat disengenuous claiming that APO is the lowest Commissioned rank in the British Armed Forces given that (certainly when I was an APO) it was directly equivalent to the Navy's rank of Midshipman and the Army's 'Second Lieutenant On probation'.

The idea that it is somehow equal to Officer Cadet is also not true. At Cranwell (although we were treated with equal contempt and wore the white flashes) we were referred to as 'Student Officer' whereas the direct entrants (even if they had degrees) were referred to as 'Officer Cadet'.

[thing]

After VE Day many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.

They weren't all demoted either. My father was an MT Fitter in Hamburg just after the war and he was appalled at having highly decorated NCO aircrew fetching tools for him. They were heroes to him (and everyone else I would assume.) He always thought their treatment was disgraceful

[Pontius Navigator]

Pom Pax, my memory o f that is a bit dim. We had Roger McCrann for 41 Course until 16/18 of us had an administrative recourse. The chop rate was too low and 1ANS could not cope. Roger was a wild batchelor and many was the mess fine for broken glass etc as he led us in hectic sessions late at night. Then we had George Kaye, married and an altogether more stable character.

Though I remember their name, and one of the two at 1ANS I don't recall using their first names. I think it was probably a hang over from school days as most of us were literally just out of school. I think Mac Browse and Harry Sime were older.
Only at BCBS did we call Larry Robinson, Larry, but that because we had 3rd and 4th tourists in the course.

[JW411]

QANTAS:

I remember the big drive by QANTAS to recruit RAF pilots. I think the year was 1964 and morale in Transport Command was not at its highest. I was at Benson on the Argosy at the time. One night, someone went round sticking posters on buildings and lamposts round the station:

"If you don't want us - QANTAS wants us".

The station commander was not too pleased.

One of our captains, accepted an offer to join QANTAS and resigned his commission.

"You can't resign" said they. "You can only apply to PVR".

"Where does is say that?" said he. "Naval and Army officers can resign. Why can't I?"

It all got a bit heated and Joe eventually told them that he and his family would be departing Heathrow on a QANTAS flight on such-and-such a date having resigned his commission and if they wanted to stop him then they would have to attend Terminal 3 where he would be happy to introduce them to the Daily Mirror reporter and photographer.

I believe he had a long career with Queensland and Northern Territories Aerial Services.

[Union Jack]

I remember the big drive by QANTAS to recruit RAF pilots. - JW411

As a very simple but worthwhile source of "recruits", QANTAS used to lay on superb parties, attended by some of their most attractive girls, whenever a British carrier visited Sydney or Fremantle.

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by ICM

It's a mystery to me still that the decision was never applied to the V-Force.
.

A contemporary advert was that you could be a flt lt, V-Force captain at the age of 23. While the responsibility was awesome, 4 individuals, a million pound aircraft, and a megaton weapon, there was not the same down-route responsibility of the transport driver. The latter were presumably much older too. I know a fair number of 10 pilots came from the V-Force.

[Union Jack]

While the responsibility was awesome, 4 individuals, a million pound aircraft, and a megaton weapon, there was not the same down-route responsibility of the transport driver. - PN



Jack

[Herod]

Jack. I'm totally bemused too. Must be hell trying to sort out hotac, fuel etc (isn't that what you've got a co-pilot and engineer for?) I wonder how I managed to survive 17,000 hours as an airline captain... such awesome responsibility.

[goudie]

I maybe wrong but I detect a hint of sarcasm in PN's post

(isn't that what you've got a co-pilot and engineer for?)

Not to mention the cabin staff, to organise the down route parties!