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-   -   APO - what is the substantive rank? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/563837-apo-what-substantive-rank.html)

India Four Two 1st Jul 2015 08:15

APO - what is the substantive rank?
 
After two years in UBAS in the 60s as a Cadet Pilot and after obtaining my Budgie Wings, I was commissioned as an Acting Pilot Officer.

I've been prompted to ask a question about the Acting part of my rank, after reading a marvellous biography of Bill Slim:

"Uncle Bill: The Authorised Biography of Field Marshal Viscount Slim" by Russell Miller.

It was of particular interest to me, because my Dad was a tank driver at Imphal.

I read that in 1944, Slim held the acting rank of Lieutenant General, but the substantive rank of Colonel.

After reading that, it made me wonder about the whole "acting rank" business and in particular, my rank. Since Pilot Officer is the lowest officer rank, and I was an APO, what was my substantive rank? Cadet Pilot or something else - AC?

Wander00 1st Jul 2015 08:19

During the second Chindit expedition Maj John Masters was for some time an acting Maj Gen, and for 6 hours or so a Lt Gen. He gave up earing badges of rank. He also became stepfather to Sir Michael Rose, and even more famous soldier

Pontius Navigator 1st Jul 2015 08:20

I42, you could have it right except you were awarded a commissioning scroll.

More akin to a Middy I guess.

Lordflasheart 1st Jul 2015 08:34


Since Pilot Officer is the lowest officer rank, and I was an APO, what was my substantive rank? Cadet Pilot or something else - AC?
Civvy ? :E ...... LFH

Tankertrashnav 1st Jul 2015 08:40

Pretty sure that your substantive rank is the one you are paid at, which would mean the substantive rank of an APO is APO! But I stand to be corrected on that. Definitely not AC - you ceased to be an AC the day you were commissioned.

Pontius Navigator 1st Jul 2015 09:20

TTN, correction, a number of flt lt were made acting sqn ldr when posted to international bullets and paid at the sqn ldr rate. I know some were then made substantive in tour or after.

The other substantive was the A/Cpl Unpaid RAFP - rank authority above their pay grade :).

Old-Duffer 1st Jul 2015 09:29

In the case of Slim and others, you are getting involvement in the war substantive rank system, with its temporary, local acting, acting, substantive and war substantive ranks.

In the RAF the affect of this can be seen in the post-war regrading and rebadging of NCO aircrew and the wholesale reassessment of officers' rank, the former in 1946 and the latter in 1947 IIRC.

If you can find anybody who can explain the system and its funny bits in less than 10000 words, please put them in touch.

Finally, I was led to believe that 'Acting Pilot Officer' is actually a substantive rank - someone will quickly put me right if that's wrong!!

Old Duffer

India Four Two 1st Jul 2015 09:40

Thanks everyone for a really interesting discussion.

So Acting is Substantive in my case? ;)


Civvy ? :E ...... LFH
:D

Jumping_Jack 1st Jul 2015 09:44

Officer Cadet?

Lordflasheart 1st Jul 2015 10:05


Civvy ? :(.

Simon - for RN flying training in the 50s/60s, including the various OFSs after Wings, IIRC it was usually here today and gone tomorrow if you were chopped or withdrew.

My late F-i-L started his WWII as a substantive Squadron Leader and ended the war as a newly promoted Flying Officer.

Wander00 1st Jul 2015 10:26

Lord Flasheart - can you expand on that - seems very odd

Wensleydale 1st Jul 2015 10:29

I believe that the "Acting" bit makes it easier to take away just in case they made a mistake at Officer Training........

ShotOne 1st Jul 2015 10:31

For detail of the effect of aircrew rank read The Eigth Passenger by Miles Tripp. After VE Day many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.

CoffmanStarter 1st Jul 2015 11:03

OD, I42 ...

Someone has had a go here ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_pilot_officer

Four Types 1st Jul 2015 13:05

Not quite the lowest!
 
When I was an APO we looked into this...it turned out the only 'commissioned' rank lower than APO was in fact a Midshipman! I did eventually reach the giddy heights of 'SPOSNI' - Senior Pilot Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland for a very short period. Over the next 34 years I didn't get much higher!

andyy 1st Jul 2015 13:11

By PN, "More akin to a Middy I guess."

Midshipmen can be Commissioned. Not usual these days but thats a relatively modern situation since people started joining up slightly older, and often as graduates, hence only being a Midshipman for one year.

In the early 80s there was a well known photo in the national press of a Sea King at Culdrose being flown by its first ever all Midshipman crew; by definition all had passed out of BRNC and were Commissioned.

langleybaston 1st Jul 2015 13:15

My knowledge is rather Army based [sorry about that] but I believe Substantive rank is/was the rank below which one could not be reduced without due process of Court Martial.

MOSTAFA 1st Jul 2015 13:17

Substantive rank is your real rank and the rank with seniority that you are paid as. Acting Rank is precisely that acting (you still get the pay but your seniority is only in your substantive rank i.e. the one below whatever your acting as. The other funny one is local rank, you wear the badge but thats it, no pay or at least thats the way it used to be.

Exascot 1st Jul 2015 13:47

What was that other anomaly? If the boss (Wg Cdr in my case) was away and you were acting boss you got paid as such but it had to be a certain length of time. A month?

PARALLEL TRACK 1st Jul 2015 13:52

We had the SNOWMAN at Lossie.

Senior Naval Officer West Moray and Nairn. I seem to remember he worked in the sim whilst holding a reserve commitment. I guess he was SPOSNI's boss!


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