Glen Ogle Accident 1994
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What does anyone hope to rake up?
Curently a bill is going through the Scottish Parliament to bring the 1976 Act into the 21st century. It is important that when that happens we do not inherit irregularities from the past.
DV
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I should add, that the Glen Ogle accident was a classic example of when to hold an FAI. The deaths were sudden, suspicious/unexplained, and gave rise to serious public concern.
DV.
DV.
Dervish,
I agree with your comments. However, there are occasions on this forum when things are posted which ought best to remain unsaid.
My post was by way of a 'gypsies' warning' in the hope that contributors remained discrete.
'nuff said.
O-D
I agree with your comments. However, there are occasions on this forum when things are posted which ought best to remain unsaid.
My post was by way of a 'gypsies' warning' in the hope that contributors remained discrete.
'nuff said.
O-D
OD:-
So is this nudge-nudge hint-hint yet another example of the "if you don't know then you shouldn't ask" syndrome that litters the pages of every single Fatal Military Accident thread on this Forum? Distant Voice wants to know if there was a FAI held following this accident, and if not why not. If the answer to that question requires
so that
then you have merely confirmed my conviction that Military Air Safety is not safe in the hands of the MOD, the RAF, the MAA, and the MAAIB, who are united by their 'discretion' in covering up the real causes of many UK Military Air Accidents.
In the vain hope that your knowledge of this tragedy, which is seemingly superior to the OP's and certainly to mine, would enable you to answer the OP, will you do so?
the hope that contributors remained discrete.
great circumspection
contributors remained discrete
In the vain hope that your knowledge of this tragedy, which is seemingly superior to the OP's and certainly to mine, would enable you to answer the OP, will you do so?
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I haven't been on this site for a long time, because quite frankly it bores me, but I was interested to learn any news about the deployment of Chinooks to Nepal, not least because I had a minor involvement this week.
I'll out myself.
Several years ago, yer man 'Beagle' made what I considered to be inflammatory comments about this incident on the Chinook Mull of Kintyre Thread. I sent him a PM explaining my situation and asked him for details on where he got his information. As I recall, he cited Data Protection as a reason not to answer me.
I was programmed to fly with PM on 1 September 1994. On that day, I was asked to go to a meeting with GM at Stn Ops, so asked RH to fly in my place, which he readily accepted. RH did not survive that sortie.
I am well aware of the rumours concerning PM and RH and the inferences that have been made. These have followed me around in the nearly 21 years since. If you knew the personalities, you would know the truth.
My wife was 7 months pregnant on 1 September 1994. I am fully aware that if it had been me, and not RH, in the boot that day, those exact same rumours would have surrounded me and my widow would have had to live with them.
There was nothing going on. It is distasteful to suggest otherwise and it dishonours the memories of two members of the Royal Air Force.
And it really pisses me off.
Roger Smith.
I'll out myself.
Several years ago, yer man 'Beagle' made what I considered to be inflammatory comments about this incident on the Chinook Mull of Kintyre Thread. I sent him a PM explaining my situation and asked him for details on where he got his information. As I recall, he cited Data Protection as a reason not to answer me.
I was programmed to fly with PM on 1 September 1994. On that day, I was asked to go to a meeting with GM at Stn Ops, so asked RH to fly in my place, which he readily accepted. RH did not survive that sortie.
I am well aware of the rumours concerning PM and RH and the inferences that have been made. These have followed me around in the nearly 21 years since. If you knew the personalities, you would know the truth.
My wife was 7 months pregnant on 1 September 1994. I am fully aware that if it had been me, and not RH, in the boot that day, those exact same rumours would have surrounded me and my widow would have had to live with them.
There was nothing going on. It is distasteful to suggest otherwise and it dishonours the memories of two members of the Royal Air Force.
And it really pisses me off.
Roger Smith.
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If this is all secret, none of anyone's business, that's fine. But why bring this into the public domain only to say nothing that makes sense?
The published account of the accident raises more questions than it answers, referring to an inexplicable extreme manoeuvre at low level "possibly to avoid a bird strike". Really? If there's nothing to say, say nothing but may I ask, in the nicest possible way, what was the point in starting this thread?
The published account of the accident raises more questions than it answers, referring to an inexplicable extreme manoeuvre at low level "possibly to avoid a bird strike". Really? If there's nothing to say, say nothing but may I ask, in the nicest possible way, what was the point in starting this thread?
Seems clear enough to me SO:-
DV:-
Your question answered before it was even asked!
DV:-
The post was not opened in order to rake up events from the past, but to establish how long the Crown Office of Scotland have avoided FAIs for Service fatalities.
The published account of the accident raises more questions than it answers, referring to an inexplicable extreme manoeuvre at low level "possibly to avoid a bird strike". Really?
The report invites speculation due to the almost total redaction of section 9 paragraph 34, yet leaving the final sentence in. There's no hint of how it came to that conclusion. Also paragraph 36.
Spot on about more questions than answers.
I am well aware of the rumours concerning PM and RH and the inferences that have been made. These have followed me around in the nearly 21 years since. If you knew the personalities, you would know the truth.
There was nothing going on. It is distasteful to suggest otherwise and it dishonours the memories of two members of the Royal Air Force.
And it really pisses me off.
There was nothing going on. It is distasteful to suggest otherwise and it dishonours the memories of two members of the Royal Air Force.
And it really pisses me off.
I too was there that day and was a BoI witness and can (and did) testify to the above. It still astonishes me how many people have approached me over the many years since to repeat such terrible and baseless rumours.
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Piggies (Roger Smith) and Just this Once
As I have said before, this post was started, not to "muck rake", but to gather information about past FAIs ahead of a Scottish Parlimentary review. Clearly you were both involved with the Glen Ogle accident, do you know what reasons were given to the families involved as to why an FAI was not held?
DV
As I have said before, this post was started, not to "muck rake", but to gather information about past FAIs ahead of a Scottish Parlimentary review. Clearly you were both involved with the Glen Ogle accident, do you know what reasons were given to the families involved as to why an FAI was not held?
DV
JTO:-
I think that you are looking for a conspiracy where none exists. Glen Ogle has much in common with other fatal accident threads on this forum. No satisfactory outcome of the investigation by BoI or RO, probable pressure by VSOs and MOD to ensure that outcome and to stifle further investigation by Coroners or PFs, and the belief by those who were 'there' that it is their tragedy alone and others should stay away. If the CAA, AAIB, BA etc reacted thus and hence stifled Air Safety, I for one would simply stay at home.
Glen Ogle and Mull of Kintyre share much of the above, but at least Mull got an FAI. That the MOD managed to subvert it but were later rumbled may explain why other FAIs have not happened, oh and that the aircrew involved were at the time unemployed of course, flying as they were in Scottish Airspace...
If you're going to to flatly ignore my question, chug that's fine but don't tell me it's been answered when it hasn't.
Glen Ogle and Mull of Kintyre share much of the above, but at least Mull got an FAI. That the MOD managed to subvert it but were later rumbled may explain why other FAIs have not happened, oh and that the aircrew involved were at the time unemployed of course, flying as they were in Scottish Airspace...
Last edited by Chugalug2; 2nd May 2015 at 08:56.
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This thread should be locked.
Ops (original question) was asked and 100% answered within the first few posts. It has now grown legs and touched some sensitivities. If anybody wishes to respond to DVs latest question the correct channel would be by PM. If anybody wishes to extend the discussion re the legalities of BOI and FAI they could...
a. Start a thread for that purpose.
b. Use one of the other threads that are already running (there are several).
I'm not a mod, not the originator, so can only ask nicely. We do of course have the ultimate power of choice.
If the thread is not locked, I suggest anybody that finds it offensive never posts in it again...period. It will shortly thereafter die a natural death.
I'm out.
Ops (original question) was asked and 100% answered within the first few posts. It has now grown legs and touched some sensitivities. If anybody wishes to respond to DVs latest question the correct channel would be by PM. If anybody wishes to extend the discussion re the legalities of BOI and FAI they could...
a. Start a thread for that purpose.
b. Use one of the other threads that are already running (there are several).
I'm not a mod, not the originator, so can only ask nicely. We do of course have the ultimate power of choice.
If the thread is not locked, I suggest anybody that finds it offensive never posts in it again...period. It will shortly thereafter die a natural death.
I'm out.
JTO, apologies, my post should have been directed to SO, who I quoted. Sorry!
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"the post was not opened to rake up events from the past, but to establish how long the Crown Office for Scotland have avoided FAI's for Service fatalities". Really DV? In that case why didn't you ask it in the Scottish Law Gazette rather than a public Military Aviation forum making specific reference to this crash if you were interested only in the legal protocols?
"At least Mull got an FAI" Yes it did, chug but only thanks to considerable financial support from the membership of pilots' union BALPA including myself. If you're placing the Glen Ogle crash in the same basket I suggest that very much undermines the "nothing to discuss" line.
"At least Mull got an FAI" Yes it did, chug but only thanks to considerable financial support from the membership of pilots' union BALPA including myself. If you're placing the Glen Ogle crash in the same basket I suggest that very much undermines the "nothing to discuss" line.
SO (got it this time:-)
"Nothing to discuss" was never my line, jaw jaw and all that! I'm intrigued though by the notion that Mull got an FAI only thanks to considerable financial support by BALPA. Are FAIs for sale? So how does that work then?
If you mean that counsel for the NoK was part financed by BALPA, then I can only suggest that you got very poor value for your money. Evidence that should have been presented was not, evidence that should have been challenged was not.
Apologies of course to TOFO for posting at all, apologies to others for any supposed thread drift, but the subject of this thread is the Scottish FAI system, whether or not of Glen Ogle, Mull, or Moray Firth.
Perhaps devolution might have the salutary effect of loosening the dead hand of Whitehall on the holding of Scottish Fatal Accident Inquiries involving UK Service people? Talk about unforeseen consequences...
"At least Mull got an FAI" Yes it did, chug but only thanks to considerable financial support from the membership of pilots' union BALPA including myself. If you're placing the Glen Ogle crash in the same basket I suggest that very much undermines the "nothing to discuss" line.
If you mean that counsel for the NoK was part financed by BALPA, then I can only suggest that you got very poor value for your money. Evidence that should have been presented was not, evidence that should have been challenged was not.
Apologies of course to TOFO for posting at all, apologies to others for any supposed thread drift, but the subject of this thread is the Scottish FAI system, whether or not of Glen Ogle, Mull, or Moray Firth.
Perhaps devolution might have the salutary effect of loosening the dead hand of Whitehall on the holding of Scottish Fatal Accident Inquiries involving UK Service people? Talk about unforeseen consequences...
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Piggies, thank you. I only ever knew the rumours and it is refreshing to hear someone who was there tell the truth after all these years. I apologise for any suggestions that I made.