Glen Ogle Accident 1994
 

Does anyone know if an Inquest or Fatal Accident Inquiry was held into the loss of Tornado GR1A ZG708, which crashed in Glen Ogle on 1st Sept 1994?

DV

I can only recall a BOI.

Painful time.

House of Commons:

DEP 05/479
Hardcopy only*
15-03-2005 Commons Ministry of Defence, Royal Air Force
Proceedings of a Board of Inquiry into an aircraft accident to Tornado GR1A ZG708 near Killin, Scotland [Glen Ogle] on 1st September 1994. 30 p. RAF. 1994.

PQ 217295 Arbuthnot/Caplin

Corporate Author: Ministry of Defence, Royal Air Force

*This item is only available in hardcopy. To request a copy of this item, please contact the Parliamentary Archives

That is what I have heard from other sources. Most irregular.

DV

In Scotland, FAIs are the exception rather than the rule (unlike Inquests in England) and usually includes a degree of suspicion as to the circumstances (Certain mandatory ones but IIRC military crashes are not). As its not a death overseas, then an inquest would not be held either.

FAIs in Scotland are MANDATORY if it is a "work related" death. I assume that the lost aircrew were at work. Inquest have got nothing to do with deaths overseas. Last year an inquest was held into the death of Flt Lt Cunningham (Red Arrows). His death happened in England.

DV

Not "work related" but "industrial accident" according to the link below. Not sure if a Mil aircraft accident would have counted as industrial accident, particularly in 1994.

You could try here

HSE Enforcement Guide, Scotland, FAIs....

General
The provisions of the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976 apply to any fatal accident occurring in Scotland......

The Procurator Fiscal is required to hold an inquiry if it appears that the death has resulted from an accident occurring in Scotland while the person who has died, being an employee, was in the course of his employment or, being an employer or self-employed person, was engaged in his occupation as such. The Procurator Fiscal who must conduct the mandatory inquiry is the Fiscal whose district appears to be most closely connected with the circumstances of the death......

UK.gov Guidance in the event of an aircraft crash (page 24)

Liaison with HM Coroner (In Scotland the Procurator Fiscal)

A Coroner, or in Scotland the Procurator Fiscal, is required to inquire into all the circumstances of a sudden, violent or unnatural death. Consequently, there will be two independent but concurrent investigations into a fatal aircraft accident. In practice, the Coroner’s Officer, the Police and the AAIB Inspectors collaborate in some areas of the investigation. Normally, the Coroner or Procurator Fiscal, will be in touch with the progress of the AAIB investigation and may consult the Investigator-in-Charge when deciding which witnesses should be called........

The Mull of Kintyre Review

3.1.2 A Board of Inquiry was an internal process convened for Armed Services reasons to determine how a serious incident happened and why, and to make recommendations to prevent a recurrence. The Board of Inquiry was not a substitute for a legal inquiry into the cause and circumstances of a death. So on completion of the Board the Ministry of Defence discussed with the Lord Advocate (the chief law officer in Scotland) and Solicitor General for Scotland (responsible for the Procurator Fiscal Service who were the public prosecution service and carried out functions broadly equivalent to a coroner) the need to hold a public Fatal Accident Inquiry under Section 1(1)(a)(i) of the Fatal Accident and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976. Shortly before publication of the Board of Inquiry report the Lord Advocate concluded that a Fatal Accident Inquiry was necessary because some of those on board at the time of the crash were engaged in the course of their employment.......

Who wasn't?

And there lies the problem. Members of the Armed Forces were, and are still not, regarded as "employees" by the Lord Advocate. This is dispite Lord Neuberger's ruling in the Snatch Land rover case. An FAI took place for the Mull accident simply because civilians were on board the Chinook

DV

Moving on 20 years we have a ruling from the Lord Advocate that an FAI is not being called for the Moray Firth accident because those killed were not employed, and it is not in the piblic interest to have one. Has to change.

DV

The application of the law seems arbitrary. See here for the reason given - nothing to do with employment status and in contravention of the legal requirement...

No fatal accident inquiry into the deaths of four RAF personnel in a mid-air crash between two Tornado jets

No fatal accident inquiry will be held into a mid-air crash between two RAF Tornados which claimed three lives, the Crown Office has announced.

Flight Lieutenant Hywel Poole, 28, Flight Lieutenant Adam Sanders, 27, and Squadron Leader Samuel Bailey, 36, died in the collision over the Moray Firth on July 3 2012, while a fourth crewman was badly injured. Flt Lt Poole was born on Menai Bridge in Anglesey and later died in hospital after being airlifted from the scene.

The Crown Office said a fatal accident inquiry (FAI) “could not better and would only repeat” the investigation already carried out by the Military Aviation Authority.......

The Crown Office’s Scottish Fatalities Investigation Unit began an investigation into the deaths following the tragedy but has decided that no further inquiry is necessary.

David Green, head of the Scottish Fatalities Investigation Unit, said: “Crown Counsel carefully weighed up the full circumstances of the case, and concluded that a fatal accident inquiry could not better and would only repeat the highly-detailed investigation into the tragedy already conducted by the Military Aviation Authority. The service inquiry report which they produced also contains conclusions and recommendations which are more wide-ranging than could be expected to be achieved in a fatal accident inquiry. The RAF and MOD have accepted the recommendations of the service inquiry report, and the nearest relatives of those who tragically died in this accident have been advised of Crown Counsel’s decision.”.........

The purpose of an FAI is to establish the cause of death and ensure that lessons are learned for the future. Crown Counsel concluded that an FAI would only duplicate the months of “thorough work” undertaken by the Military Air Accident Investigation Branch and the Military Aviation Authority in preparing the service inquiry.

Angus Robertson MP, SNP defence spokesman and MP for Moray, said: “This is an extremely disappointing decision. I am totally mystified why there won’t be a Fatal Accident Inquiry. There are critical outstanding questions about Tornado safety and the delayed collision warning system. The MoD failed in its duty of care towards the RAF personnel involved in the Tornado collision. I believe they, their families and colleagues deserved better and a proper inquiry.”

David Bell, a specialist lawyer at Irwin Mitchell Scotland, which represents two of the families of victims of the Tornado crash, said: “We are disappointed about the decision not to hold a Fatal Accident Inquiry and that whilst we accept that the Service Inquiry Report does identify the immediate causes of the accident, there are many questions about how and why many of those causes arose, which need to be answered. If a Fatal Accident Inquiry is not to be held, those broader questions should be addressed by a public inquiry. The families of victims of the crash need answers as to how this crash occurred and want reassurances that any wider issues will be identified and resolved to prevent the risk of other similar accidents in future - without the appropriate inquiry, it is difficult to see how lessons will be learned.”

ORAC will PM you.

DV

ORAC I think what you posted is the latest in a long line of differing reasons. They used the "not employed" excuse as well. The MAA report didn't reveal all and the crown office is wrong.

Sorry, wasn't clear - as I'm sure you know, a Coroner in England/Wales can hold an inquest into an overseas death of Military personnel, but not one occuring elsewhere in the UK.

But you are right about the 'employed' status

Ladies and Gentlemen,

With respect.

There were said to be potential circumstances involved in this accident (Glen Ogle - not the Thread drift) which were and probably remain, exceptionally sensitive.

May I suggest great circumspection regarding further posts about ZG708.

Old Duffer

Like Scotland.

I think families should have a choice. It seems rediculous that a crew can take off from a base in England, crash in a Scottish glen, and nothing more than an SI/BOI takes place. Are crews, who are based in England, aware that as soon as they cross the border they loose their rights for a FAI/Inquest?

DV

A post guaranteed to stir up interest! Did MoD tell the procurator fiscal of these sensitive details?

Old Duffer, I generally say that full and frank discussion can only help to prevent accidents in the future. However you are spot on, this should be left as it is. What does anyone hope to rake up?
Dervish, if you know, you know. If you don't know, it's not a conspiracy.

I think he is referring to the rumours (that are not true) that surrounded this tragic event. It should not stir-up undue interest.