F4C versus MIG21
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mr N, looking at the Mig 21 in wiki there is no doubt it is a fine fighter. Objectively it seems to me the losses appear to be 2:1 so clearly number count.
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I wondered where Hanoi Jane went- the Pprune one I mean. He/ Noritake should post more often- not often someone says nice things about the GIBS (guy in back seat). Nice that some posters have said an extra pair of eyes, rather than another 200 pds of fuel, is desirable.
Also i don't see how discussing relative merits of 50 year old aircraft could be considered trolling... I'll go back under my bridge now, i hear billy-goats coming.
Also i don't see how discussing relative merits of 50 year old aircraft could be considered trolling... I'll go back under my bridge now, i hear billy-goats coming.
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Mr Navigator,
The day I come to rely on Wiki for anything other than a few hours mindless entertainment is the day I'll believe the F 35 will prove to be the Saviour of the West.
Without getting into endless (but fun) discussions on the matter, I can only say that I've yet to meet a qualified Mig 21 pilot of a certain generation who didn't firmly believe his aircraft had the beating of anything he was likely to meet in the pretty blue skies.
Does that count for anything? Personally, I believe it does, 'cos I've met quite a few F 4 aviators who didn't have the same level of confidence in their machines.
The day I come to rely on Wiki for anything other than a few hours mindless entertainment is the day I'll believe the F 35 will prove to be the Saviour of the West.
Without getting into endless (but fun) discussions on the matter, I can only say that I've yet to meet a qualified Mig 21 pilot of a certain generation who didn't firmly believe his aircraft had the beating of anything he was likely to meet in the pretty blue skies.
Does that count for anything? Personally, I believe it does, 'cos I've met quite a few F 4 aviators who didn't have the same level of confidence in their machines.
Had you, at any stage in our various encounters, displayed evidence of an open enquiring mind on the subject(s) under discussion I might feel differently.
I base and change my viewpoints on verifiable data and opinion of those with first hand knowledge. Opinions of a Vietnamese defense journal writer don't fall into either of those categories. Amusing yes, potentially true, yes, verified, no.
You surely wouldn't offer up an opinion on the state of the F-4 kit in Vietnam minus fact, would you?
Ps, I do miss your rants regarding Chinese expansionism. Have they or the Vietnamese govt muzzled you?
I can only say that I've yet to meet a qualified Mig 21 pilot of a certain generation who didn't firmly believe his aircraft had the beating of anything he was likely to meet in the pretty blue skies.
The 2:1 kill ratio is about right for that conflict. However, it's hardly a meaningful metric for comparing two aircraft. I'm sure most here will understand that, but just in case... ...the home team has GCI, closely based replacements, operating well inside their range and aren't facing other threats or trying to execute missions other than air-to-air. There was also a significant RoE issue. So, nice numbers, but the wrong vehicle for comparison.
You can do the sums yourself if you so chose, but in round figures the overall F4 kill ratio is around 3:1 (306:106), MiG21's is around 1:2 (240:501). Again all in different conflicts so no more or less meaningful than the earlier comparison.
And there are lots more factors involved in assessing combat effectiveness that just going up head-to-head. As we all know.
You can do the sums yourself if you so chose, but in round figures the overall F4 kill ratio is around 3:1 (306:106), MiG21's is around 1:2 (240:501). Again all in different conflicts so no more or less meaningful than the earlier comparison.
And there are lots more factors involved in assessing combat effectiveness that just going up head-to-head. As we all know.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mr N, I am a contributor.
As for belief, young men are invincible. We had every confidence of slipping past the picket ship, avoiding a pair of SA 3 batteries 4.6 Miles apart, getting lost in the Pripet marshes before defeating the SA2/3 and ADA at our target before exiting safely at high level to land safely post-mission.
Just like your Mig driver in fact.
That B52 could survive at height in a denser SAM environment in a conventional war suggests our chances in a nuclear holocaust were not too bad .
As for belief, young men are invincible. We had every confidence of slipping past the picket ship, avoiding a pair of SA 3 batteries 4.6 Miles apart, getting lost in the Pripet marshes before defeating the SA2/3 and ADA at our target before exiting safely at high level to land safely post-mission.
Just like your Mig driver in fact.
That B52 could survive at height in a denser SAM environment in a conventional war suggests our chances in a nuclear holocaust were not too bad .
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West Coast:
Do you think you get to be a 'Vietnamese Defence journal writer' without having done some air defending?
Most F 4 kit I saw was in bits.
Ironically, PPRuNe muzzled me :-)
Do you think you get to be a 'Vietnamese Defence journal writer' without having done some air defending?
Most F 4 kit I saw was in bits.
Ironically, PPRuNe muzzled me :-)
Jane
Were you then a MiG21 pilot who flew the aircraft against US aircraft in battle?
A simple yes or no will suffice. It's easy to verify against your previous postings under your old account.
Were you then a MiG21 pilot who flew the aircraft against US aircraft in battle?
A simple yes or no will suffice. It's easy to verify against your previous postings under your old account.
I'm not going to participate in your exchange of oppinions on this matter, as i'm biased by having flown the F4 for more than 3.000 hours. I have no expierience in real combat though.
But it was a question we as new pilots were interested as well. I started training in the F4-E/F 1977, some of the instructor pilots had first hand combat expierience from Nam. I was looking for further information and bought the book "aces aerial victories, the United States Air Force in Southeast Asia 1965-1973". It is a collection of first hand accounts by Air Force fighter crews who flew combat missions over North Vietnam between 1965-1973. Further References are from "The Albert F.Simpson Historical Research Center Air University" and "Office of Air Force History Headquarters USAF"
I found it online as pdf file, I recommend to read it to assist in your discussion.
http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media...100921-010.pdf
But it was a question we as new pilots were interested as well. I started training in the F4-E/F 1977, some of the instructor pilots had first hand combat expierience from Nam. I was looking for further information and bought the book "aces aerial victories, the United States Air Force in Southeast Asia 1965-1973". It is a collection of first hand accounts by Air Force fighter crews who flew combat missions over North Vietnam between 1965-1973. Further References are from "The Albert F.Simpson Historical Research Center Air University" and "Office of Air Force History Headquarters USAF"
I found it online as pdf file, I recommend to read it to assist in your discussion.
http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media...100921-010.pdf
Then your offering opinion only. That's fine, your right (I think it's a right in Vietnam) to do so.
Problem is, aviation folks like facts not a fanciful opinion of a defense journal writer.
Problem is, aviation folks like facts not a fanciful opinion of a defense journal writer.
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And, Noritake, what air defending have you done? I only ask because your words here suggest to me that you are more informed by reading and political influence than by experience.
I think we have to thank Gail peck for a lot of the familiarity with the mig family. Many of our brethren have been baptised and able to spread the knowledge with first hand experience.
The 21 is a highly capable fighter and should not be underestimated, the slow handling ability needs to be seen to be believed.... I wonder if our red star friends had the benefit of f4s in the deserts of Russia to play with the outcome would have been reversed.
If the a4 can beat tomcats and f18s why not the 21 against the f15?
The 21 is a highly capable fighter and should not be underestimated, the slow handling ability needs to be seen to be believed.... I wonder if our red star friends had the benefit of f4s in the deserts of Russia to play with the outcome would have been reversed.
If the a4 can beat tomcats and f18s why not the 21 against the f15?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As CM points out, ratios of 3:1 or 1:2 (simply 1.5:1) in themselves are meaningless unless you strip out red on red, G-A, and other aircraft kills.
What remains however is that more Mugs got shot down so you need greater numbers to achieve parity and can attribute the imbalance to sophistication. Simple and reliable may get airborne but then becomes a target.
What remains however is that more Mugs got shot down so you need greater numbers to achieve parity and can attribute the imbalance to sophistication. Simple and reliable may get airborne but then becomes a target.
When you look at the FISHBED pilot claims in North Vietnam you see 'aces' like Nguyễn Hồng Nh claiming AQM-34 Firebees in their count. Maybe the RAF does have some recent kills then with the Jindivik in Cardigan Bay? 
iRaven
iRaven
Originally Posted by Dagenham
why not the 21 against the f15?
Agreed... But how often do the roe permit this.....
There are not many conflicts where the politicos have the balls to allow free use of bvr? In an ecm environment the 21 as hard to spot as an f5....
In addition you would be surprised at how many f15s and 16 lost to the 21 at tonopah on the first two to three engagements.
There are not many conflicts where the politicos have the balls to allow free use of bvr? In an ecm environment the 21 as hard to spot as an f5....
In addition you would be surprised at how many f15s and 16 lost to the 21 at tonopah on the first two to three engagements.