OP 'TIL WE DROP
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"Akrotiri is a regular RAF station and should have all the facilities of one. More to the point, it is in effect our aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean, where ops to small wars are to be expected, therefore it should have a hospital."
It did have a hospital when I served there in the late 1990s but, even then, the Station wasn't given the budgetary support it deserved in my opinion. Years later, it is still as important as it was back then. I'm personally delighted that I'm no longer the PRO there as, now that I've (just) retired (for the 2nd time!) and no longer have to defend the indefensible. However, I'm sorry for those who still serve in these parsimonious days. However, as some other posters have said, t'was ever thus!
It did have a hospital when I served there in the late 1990s but, even then, the Station wasn't given the budgetary support it deserved in my opinion. Years later, it is still as important as it was back then. I'm personally delighted that I'm no longer the PRO there as, now that I've (just) retired (for the 2nd time!) and no longer have to defend the indefensible. However, I'm sorry for those who still serve in these parsimonious days. However, as some other posters have said, t'was ever thus!
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I was stationed at Akrotiri 1965-67 when about 11,000 service personnel were on the base. There were two airmen's messes and a third airmen's mess (just up the road from the Pen Club) was built but never used.
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It's clear from some of the posts above how fast things have changed over the last decade, leaving many quite simply out of touch with today's Airman.
To me, this whole post smacks of two issues:
1. Cumulative and Chronic Fatigue - the GR Force is one of several that have been disproportionately deployed over the last decade (since Harrier left HERRICK, really). This letter is more about the rest of the load on that "Camel's Back" than this particular straw; when a force is chronically fatigued, it's the small things, predominantly feeling looked after, that matter.
2. Whilst several have criticised the middle management, I think this shows exactly how financial constraints eat into Mission Command - even at our main base, the Auth for biscuits for a visiting MP sits at 1* level
Middle management is also working hard and EngOs, I'm sure, have little time to sort out support functions that should be a 'given'. Especially when you have to write a full business case to get even a pack of pencils these days. The issue here is the general lack of Op focus in our self-licking lollipop support trades...
This is long-term and these guys are on a MOB not a FOB...support them or lose them, simples.
To me, this whole post smacks of two issues:
1. Cumulative and Chronic Fatigue - the GR Force is one of several that have been disproportionately deployed over the last decade (since Harrier left HERRICK, really). This letter is more about the rest of the load on that "Camel's Back" than this particular straw; when a force is chronically fatigued, it's the small things, predominantly feeling looked after, that matter.
2. Whilst several have criticised the middle management, I think this shows exactly how financial constraints eat into Mission Command - even at our main base, the Auth for biscuits for a visiting MP sits at 1* level
Middle management is also working hard and EngOs, I'm sure, have little time to sort out support functions that should be a 'given'. Especially when you have to write a full business case to get even a pack of pencils these days. The issue here is the general lack of Op focus in our self-licking lollipop support trades...This is long-term and these guys are on a MOB not a FOB...support them or lose them, simples.
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 5th Dec 2014 at 20:56.
Any of the contributors to this thread actually been deployed as part of this det who can support the allegations made?
And just for the RAF-bashers posting on this thread isn't Akrotiri a Permanent Joint Operating Base and therefore falls under the (rules and) responsibility of PJHQ and not AIR Command? Would love to know whether the AVM was from PJHQ or AOC 1 Gp......
Also, whilst things may have changed since my PJHQ bunker time I think it is part of the J5 Division (for all the 'oldies' out there J5 have responsibility for crisis and deliberate planning) so I guess whilst the desk officer responsible may be light blue the DACOS (Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff - gp capt or equiv) and/or ACOS (Assistant Chief of Staff - 1*) could well be a sailor or a soldier (or even a booty!).
And just for the RAF-bashers posting on this thread isn't Akrotiri a Permanent Joint Operating Base and therefore falls under the (rules and) responsibility of PJHQ and not AIR Command? Would love to know whether the AVM was from PJHQ or AOC 1 Gp......
Also, whilst things may have changed since my PJHQ bunker time I think it is part of the J5 Division (for all the 'oldies' out there J5 have responsibility for crisis and deliberate planning) so I guess whilst the desk officer responsible may be light blue the DACOS (Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff - gp capt or equiv) and/or ACOS (Assistant Chief of Staff - 1*) could well be a sailor or a soldier (or even a booty!).
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I really wasn't aware of any RAF bashing, its the politicians who dish out the money and its the politicians who decide that we should mount operations. If they don't ensure that the facilities at all levels are there, don't be surprised if the ops don't work very well.
At face value, it may appear to some as the dripping of a SNCO about hard sandwiches and lack of retail facilities.
But the deeper (and more worrying) issues are that 1) Although this is a relatively new Op, RAF Akrotiri should be a well established MOB with the appropriate H24 facilities. 2) Some of these guys will have been on expeditionary ops since 9/11...and Op Southern Watch before that. If you want an Armed Forces, you have to invest in it.
And finally, 3) do you really want a tired, malnourished, p*ssed off engineer with one eye on the PVR button maintaining your jet during constant ops over badlands??
But the deeper (and more worrying) issues are that 1) Although this is a relatively new Op, RAF Akrotiri should be a well established MOB with the appropriate H24 facilities. 2) Some of these guys will have been on expeditionary ops since 9/11...and Op Southern Watch before that. If you want an Armed Forces, you have to invest in it.
And finally, 3) do you really want a tired, malnourished, p*ssed off engineer with one eye on the PVR button maintaining your jet during constant ops over badlands??
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"And finally, 3) do you really want a tired, malnourished, p*ssed off engineer with one eye on the PVR button maintaining your jet during constant ops over badlands??"
Welcome to the world of Apache, SH and other platforms serving on ops (not on a MOB).
Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military....
Welcome to the world of Apache, SH and other platforms serving on ops (not on a MOB).
Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military....
Coverage on this issue and GR4 starting on Newsnight now.
For those who missed it http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...night-05122014
For those who missed it http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...night-05122014
Last edited by Wokkafans; 5th Dec 2014 at 23:14. Reason: Added linky
Cry me a river chaps. Given the deployments expected of the other two services, the dripping here is astonishing.
Max deployments allowed:
RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30
Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.
There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps...
Max deployments allowed:
RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30
Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.
There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps...
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Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military
It's what happens when the politicians want to be 'world leaders' and project their power round the globe, but aren't prepared to financially provide the back up required. The reductions in airframes and manpower have not been matched by a reduction in the politicians desire to be seen as 'players' on the world stage.
Jwscud,
Those figures are guidelines rather than hard rules, and operational commitments may well mean those guidelines are routinely breached.
Added in to that, I suspect the RAF figures are now out if date given that the NFU tour length has been standardised at 6 months - with the usual amounts if separated service each year on top of that figure for un established commitments, Ex, trg etc. So if you were to compare the Services over the exact same length of time, I suspect there wouldn't be much in it between any of them.
Those figures are guidelines rather than hard rules, and operational commitments may well mean those guidelines are routinely breached.
Added in to that, I suspect the RAF figures are now out if date given that the NFU tour length has been standardised at 6 months - with the usual amounts if separated service each year on top of that figure for un established commitments, Ex, trg etc. So if you were to compare the Services over the exact same length of time, I suspect there wouldn't be much in it between any of them.
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"Cry me a river chaps. Given the deployments expected of the other two services, the dripping here is astonishing.
Max deployments allowed:
RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30
Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.
There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps... "
However, RAF Akrotiri is a MOB not "just" a deployment. Something You appear to have overlooked, so we would expect a certain standard, after all, the Station has been there for many years.
However, it's interesting that the current RM max deployment seems to be the same as my father's deployment with the West indies Sqn (not just one ship!) in 1937 - a tour interrupted in September 1939.
Max deployments allowed:
RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30
Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.
There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps... "
However, RAF Akrotiri is a MOB not "just" a deployment. Something You appear to have overlooked, so we would expect a certain standard, after all, the Station has been there for many years.
However, it's interesting that the current RM max deployment seems to be the same as my father's deployment with the West indies Sqn (not just one ship!) in 1937 - a tour interrupted in September 1939.
There seems to be two types of posters here - those who are shocked by what has happened and those who are not surprised. The former are no longer serving; the latter are. Putting aside the issues surrounding cheese sandwiches, I wonder how long it will be that the accumulated risk of various change programmes (PAYD, leaning JPA, guarding etc etc) will lead to mission failure over ISIS territory? This aspect was reviewed at considerable length in the Capability health Check of 2008 in response to Haddon-Cave....what has happened since to allow this situation to develop?
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Whenurhappy, two types of posters. Those who are shocked (military) and those who aren't surprised (RAF). Yep, you are quite right. You seem to be suggesting that a lack of facilities at Akkers will lose us the 'war'?
Do you wonder why most laugh at the RAF?
Do you wonder why most laugh at the RAF?
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I was stationed in AKI from 1981-83 on TASF. It was an excellent posting and the camp was fully manned and functioning well. As can be seen from the date the only war that was going on was on the other side of the world. Over the years since I've done many stops in AKI and always on base, never did get HOTAC. Always in 100 or 101. My last duty visit was in 97 and all still seemed OK.
Last time I was at AKI was in 2010, was returning from a CONDO assignment in Bastion. As some friends were on the trooping rotation crews I stopped off in AKI for the weekend for a social. I have to say I was shocked at the decline in the place, under manned, under funded and delapidation plain to see at every turn. Add to this PAYD and it is just not the place it was, thank God the kebab at Sylvanas was still up to scratch and Greg & Georgina are still going strong. Although more expensive, what isn't, the blame for this can be put squarely at the door of the Euro. The Aki Arms was also still pretty good.
All in all I left AKI with a large twinge of sadness ...... Or maybe I'm just getting old and suffering from a large dose of WIWO with lamp swinging
Last time I was at AKI was in 2010, was returning from a CONDO assignment in Bastion. As some friends were on the trooping rotation crews I stopped off in AKI for the weekend for a social. I have to say I was shocked at the decline in the place, under manned, under funded and delapidation plain to see at every turn. Add to this PAYD and it is just not the place it was, thank God the kebab at Sylvanas was still up to scratch and Greg & Georgina are still going strong. Although more expensive, what isn't, the blame for this can be put squarely at the door of the Euro. The Aki Arms was also still pretty good.
All in all I left AKI with a large twinge of sadness ...... Or maybe I'm just getting old and suffering from a large dose of WIWO with lamp swinging
WG
I now stand at a distance away from the MOD but work for HMG. If true (and other posters seem to back this up) this treatment is simply not acceptable in 2014 on a PJOB or MOB. There seems to have been a systemic failure - from Contracts Branch drafting the MAC contract to the line manager who should have dealt with gripes - but, I suspect, has b&gger-all leverage to effect change. On this point, just see how (little) authority a Stn Cdr has these days; personnel matters are effectively contracted out to CPAC in Glasgow; works matters are now fully within DIO; contractors do the engineering and contractors do much of the life support side of house, including catering. Last meal I had in a PAYD UK mess, about 4 months ago, wasn't fit for pigs, frankly.
If you think that all of the above is acceptable, well....so be it.
I now stand at a distance away from the MOD but work for HMG. If true (and other posters seem to back this up) this treatment is simply not acceptable in 2014 on a PJOB or MOB. There seems to have been a systemic failure - from Contracts Branch drafting the MAC contract to the line manager who should have dealt with gripes - but, I suspect, has b&gger-all leverage to effect change. On this point, just see how (little) authority a Stn Cdr has these days; personnel matters are effectively contracted out to CPAC in Glasgow; works matters are now fully within DIO; contractors do the engineering and contractors do much of the life support side of house, including catering. Last meal I had in a PAYD UK mess, about 4 months ago, wasn't fit for pigs, frankly.
If you think that all of the above is acceptable, well....so be it.
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Jwscud,
Your point is? The Squadron that just returned from AKI have been deployed on Operations for 240 days this year across three Op theatres. You can quote harmony expectations all you like but the reality is much different because there's a job to do and, right now, the light blue are being asked to do it.
Don't believe everything you read; I include this article in that.
It never surprises me to see the 'in my day' brigade come forth to proffer such wise words (read thinly-veiled contempt) at today's military personnel. quite frankly, this brigade couldn't be more out of touch with reality and seem ludicrously ignorant of what it means to serve in a highly-leaned Armed Forces during a time when we've rarely been asked to do more. The short, sharp shock of conflict can often be recovered from if respite is available. Sadly there has been little respite for many for over 12+ years and the cumulative, chronic fatigue of constant deployments can justifiably wear thin and cause grievance.
That said, haters will always hate.
Your point is? The Squadron that just returned from AKI have been deployed on Operations for 240 days this year across three Op theatres. You can quote harmony expectations all you like but the reality is much different because there's a job to do and, right now, the light blue are being asked to do it.
Don't believe everything you read; I include this article in that.
It never surprises me to see the 'in my day' brigade come forth to proffer such wise words (read thinly-veiled contempt) at today's military personnel. quite frankly, this brigade couldn't be more out of touch with reality and seem ludicrously ignorant of what it means to serve in a highly-leaned Armed Forces during a time when we've rarely been asked to do more. The short, sharp shock of conflict can often be recovered from if respite is available. Sadly there has been little respite for many for over 12+ years and the cumulative, chronic fatigue of constant deployments can justifiably wear thin and cause grievance.
That said, haters will always hate.