ANALYSIS: Miltary faces 'perfect storm' of budget vs need
Requirement Scrutiny is the mandated process by which MoD ensures a proposed spend is “good”. The process itself is not inefficient nor does it cost much – if done properly.
How about a system where JPA justs puts £x in my pay chit for everyday away from home and thats it. Seems to work for a vast number of private organisations around the world and removes the need to spend £100k per station to save £15.60 per year on someone who had 2 glasses of wine with dinner rather than 1!
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HTB,
No that's not it...it was far more "austerity-specific" than that blog. In fact, it was identical to any number of articles appearing in newspapers today. This led me to conjecture why SF's blog/point in 2010 did not get more attention along the lines of the furore which has kicked up today...and I suspect I know why.
Back in 2010 the crash/credit crunch/call-it-what-you-will was pretty fresh in our minds and we, Joe Public, expected a lot of unpleasant fallout and bitter medicine. Close to five years later, I think a lot of people are thinking that the economy is a) fixed b) almost fixed c) partly fixed.
It has come as an unpleasant shock to more than a few, to find that we ain't even close and in all probability, what you see is what you get for a very long time still. And BTW, I'm an optimist.
No that's not it...it was far more "austerity-specific" than that blog. In fact, it was identical to any number of articles appearing in newspapers today. This led me to conjecture why SF's blog/point in 2010 did not get more attention along the lines of the furore which has kicked up today...and I suspect I know why.
Back in 2010 the crash/credit crunch/call-it-what-you-will was pretty fresh in our minds and we, Joe Public, expected a lot of unpleasant fallout and bitter medicine. Close to five years later, I think a lot of people are thinking that the economy is a) fixed b) almost fixed c) partly fixed.
It has come as an unpleasant shock to more than a few, to find that we ain't even close and in all probability, what you see is what you get for a very long time still. And BTW, I'm an optimist.
How about a system where JPA justs puts £x in my pay chit for everyday away from home and thats it. Seems to work for a vast number of private organisations around the world and removes the need to spend £100k per station to save £15.60 per year on someone who had 2 glasses of wine with dinner rather than 1!
However Tuc - and this is possibly an example of what AW is referring to.............
Mechta has it right. You'd be given, say, £35 and what you did with it was up to you. When HBS came in, the £35 became £60 minimum; then they discovered MoD would actually go to nearer £100. The system demanded 3 Stars or more, with certain facilities like writing paper, desk etc. You'd find yourself booked into a place 30 miles from the factory instead of the guest house next door. MoD(PE)'s "solution" in our case was to insist 140 miles each way from AbbeyWood to Crawley was commutable so no overnighters. Be there for 0830 start, leave at 1800. Same for guys on Detached Duty from Fleetlands to London. 3 hours+ each way for years on end. It took its toll. My mate Brian died on the steps of St Giles Court. Investors in People? Don't make me laugh.
NHS isn't a Black Hole of Incompetence,
How about the black of incompetence that is the Ministry of Defence and the Defence budget?
We have the fifth largest defence spend on the face of the planet, and yet face a constant round of capability reductions, holidays and falling numbers of absolutely everything.
How about the black of incompetence that is the Ministry of Defence and the Defence budget?
We have the fifth largest defence spend on the face of the planet, and yet face a constant round of capability reductions, holidays and falling numbers of absolutely everything.
You are, I imagine quite right about the Defence Budget, it still amazes me, overseas campaigns or no, that we have so few actual assets. It had been suggested, but I'm not sure, that the Strategic Nuclear Deterrent is now paid for out of the peace time defence budget, rather than capitol expenditure, that would explain a bit. However, your black and white view contrasting the NHS budget with the defence budget doesn't seem entirely objective. Both, it would seem are ridden with incompetence and self interest and over officious spending practices. Further, given the amount of cash made available to the NHS (and I don't begrudge them a penny, I have need of their services on routine basis now
) I do think that to defend the NHS and I dare say welfare budgets and complain about poor funding, as others not necessarily yourself have maintained, is a little rich (pardon the pun!) especially when the defence budget has been put through the proverbial mill, not since 2010 but since 1990. By the way, I thought we had the fourth largest defence budget on the planet?
FB
Indeed. I was talking mainly about capital expenditure. I recall when the Hotel Booking Service was introduced. A young lady of 16 was sent to Glasgow on a course. Her first time away from home. The HBS booked her into a cheapo place, but when she arrived on the late train she discovered the cost was "per hour".
Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire
Any of this ring any bells?
The rich senatorial aristocrats in Rome itself became increasingly influential during the fifth century; they supported armed strength in theory, but did not wish to pay for it or to offer their own workers as army recruits.
The ineffectiveness of Roman military responses from Stilicho onwards has been described as "shocking", with little evidence of .. adequate training, discipline, pay, or supply.
The fifth-century Western emperors, with brief exceptions, were individuals incapable of ruling effectively.
The ineffectiveness of Roman military responses from Stilicho onwards has been described as "shocking", with little evidence of .. adequate training, discipline, pay, or supply.
The fifth-century Western emperors, with brief exceptions, were individuals incapable of ruling effectively.
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Tucumseh has a lifetime of axes to grind across the PPRuNe threads. So many bad experiences to recount, whether they are his or experienced vicariously! Every day is groundhog day for Tuc as the opportunities to slate MoD are never ending.
S-D
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Fox3
Very timely and apposite.
Today's announcement re base in Bahrain, reminds us that the Brit way is foreign policy first...throw the job at the military and tell them to get one with second.
First a week of announcing potential mega-cuts, then start talking about new overseas commitments.
OK, I know full well the Bahrain base does not amount to much more than we have been doing for years...that's not my point. We are committing once more to the "international policeman" role, which, whatever its merits, places huge strains on our defense resources. Only after we have made these commitments will anybody start worrying about how we are going to resource them....because basically we always find a way to muddle through. Increasingly the burden of all that muddling falls squarely on the shoulders of the British tommie.
Very timely and apposite.
Today's announcement re base in Bahrain, reminds us that the Brit way is foreign policy first...throw the job at the military and tell them to get one with second.
First a week of announcing potential mega-cuts, then start talking about new overseas commitments.
OK, I know full well the Bahrain base does not amount to much more than we have been doing for years...that's not my point. We are committing once more to the "international policeman" role, which, whatever its merits, places huge strains on our defense resources. Only after we have made these commitments will anybody start worrying about how we are going to resource them....because basically we always find a way to muddle through. Increasingly the burden of all that muddling falls squarely on the shoulders of the British tommie.
Critical Shortages
The Telegraph are running a story about critical shortages across the Services today, highlighting areas designated as Operational Pinch Points - seems to be a perfect example of where need and budgets collide.
http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11276821/Armed-Forces-have-critical-shortage-of-submariners-intelligence-officers-and-medics.html
For the RAF, IntOs, Police and Regt have apparently all been designated OPPs ... I assume there is a plan to resolve the issue if they are undermining operational output ... other than as is suggested, making them exempt from compulsory redundancy????
It never ceases to amaze me how Defence has somehow managed to convince itself that being financially responsible somehow equates to not wanting to pay for anything these days.
Biggus - try now, thanks for the heads up. Fat fingers + IT idiocy x iPad = cock up on my part more than likely.
And having just seen Fox3s post, yep, that all sounds familiar!
http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11276821/Armed-Forces-have-critical-shortage-of-submariners-intelligence-officers-and-medics.html
For the RAF, IntOs, Police and Regt have apparently all been designated OPPs ... I assume there is a plan to resolve the issue if they are undermining operational output ... other than as is suggested, making them exempt from compulsory redundancy????
It never ceases to amaze me how Defence has somehow managed to convince itself that being financially responsible somehow equates to not wanting to pay for anything these days.
Biggus - try now, thanks for the heads up. Fat fingers + IT idiocy x iPad = cock up on my part more than likely.
And having just seen Fox3s post, yep, that all sounds familiar!
Last edited by Melchett01; 6th Dec 2014 at 08:45. Reason: Broken web link
I have a defence saving - get rid if the Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO) and their cartel Regional Prime Contractors (RPCs). The annual infra budget is £4.5Bn and I reckon you could see an immediate £2Bn saving.
Why? Because DIO and their RPC crooks at "40% variance" to all costed jobs - guess what? They nearly always come in over cost near this 40%! I have seen some outrageous costings for very shabby work at Stn level and there is no competition. There are so many good craftsmen in the local area who want the work and would do it for half the cost - I know because I've had some in for a quote, only to be told that I must use the RPC at twice the cost!
We only need DIO for a regulatory function and for strategic infra planning - but at the local level, the RPCs combined with DIO is a disaster...IMHO.
As for other Govt savings, then the elephant in the room is HS2. At £50Bn plus and climbing, this should be shelved and investment in existing and dormant rail lines should be made. The new East/West rail link is a good case in point which travels between Oxford and Cambridge (roughly). The cost are ~£300M and there are other options 'up North' which would also bring much benefit for much smaller investment. The soon to be rolled out link between Oxford and Marleybone is also costed at very small amounts (in comparison to HS2) and will carve 25% off the travelling time between London and Oxford. Here is a list of potential improvements for very little cost (also ripe for outside investors): http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/re...-rail-lines#em
Finally, scale back the ~£40Bn Trident replacement to cruise missile delivery - from ships, planes and submarines and you could yield at least a £20Bn reduction. Lots of little nukes have a better chance to get through than a few MRV warheads from a single boat.
There you go, I reckon you could make ~£10Bn per year without touching the NHS and schools. Sort out the immigrant access to benefits and other social services without paying any tax/NI and you will have more savings.
Problem, sorted, next?
LJ
PS. My name is not Nigel Farage!
Why? Because DIO and their RPC crooks at "40% variance" to all costed jobs - guess what? They nearly always come in over cost near this 40%! I have seen some outrageous costings for very shabby work at Stn level and there is no competition. There are so many good craftsmen in the local area who want the work and would do it for half the cost - I know because I've had some in for a quote, only to be told that I must use the RPC at twice the cost!
We only need DIO for a regulatory function and for strategic infra planning - but at the local level, the RPCs combined with DIO is a disaster...IMHO.
As for other Govt savings, then the elephant in the room is HS2. At £50Bn plus and climbing, this should be shelved and investment in existing and dormant rail lines should be made. The new East/West rail link is a good case in point which travels between Oxford and Cambridge (roughly). The cost are ~£300M and there are other options 'up North' which would also bring much benefit for much smaller investment. The soon to be rolled out link between Oxford and Marleybone is also costed at very small amounts (in comparison to HS2) and will carve 25% off the travelling time between London and Oxford. Here is a list of potential improvements for very little cost (also ripe for outside investors): http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/re...-rail-lines#em
Finally, scale back the ~£40Bn Trident replacement to cruise missile delivery - from ships, planes and submarines and you could yield at least a £20Bn reduction. Lots of little nukes have a better chance to get through than a few MRV warheads from a single boat.
There you go, I reckon you could make ~£10Bn per year without touching the NHS and schools. Sort out the immigrant access to benefits and other social services without paying any tax/NI and you will have more savings.
Problem, sorted, next?
LJ
PS. My name is not Nigel Farage!
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 6th Dec 2014 at 08:59.
Next?
Common sense is all very well, but there seems to be some kind of common sense removal process on getting elected; much like Bootie or Rock Ape brain-removal or WRAF Officer legs inversion etc
F3WMB
I always found the average bootie way more intelligent than a para - however, that's not much of a comparison!
Yes, I agree, the answers seem so glaringly obvious that sometimes I think I must be missing something. How about a PPrune Political Wing? I'd vote Coffman for the PM and you and I could be in his cabinet, if he'd have us!
LJ
I always found the average bootie way more intelligent than a para - however, that's not much of a comparison!
Yes, I agree, the answers seem so glaringly obvious that sometimes I think I must be missing something. How about a PPrune Political Wing? I'd vote Coffman for the PM and you and I could be in his cabinet, if he'd have us!
LJ
How clever do you think current politicians are?
Intelligent and devious, yes; but not the least bit clever.
If their election depended on their ability to produce effective policy, they'd all be on the dole in a week.
I've worked under 3 people with degrees in politics/history (check the current Cabinet); not one of them could plan for the future worth a damn.
Intelligent and devious, yes; but not the least bit clever.
If their election depended on their ability to produce effective policy, they'd all be on the dole in a week.
I've worked under 3 people with degrees in politics/history (check the current Cabinet); not one of them could plan for the future worth a damn.
Ah, the beloved career politician - degree in Philosophy, Polictics and Economics (PPE), internship for a year in the city so that they state they have a commercial background, some time in Political Research Group, support a campaign, get in via a safe seat and then away you go; a life in politics for the rest of your life, never minding if you actually believe in what you are spouting because someone will.
I've always thought that you should be 35+ to become a politician. You must have had a career for at least 10 years before and have to sit some form of general knowledge quiz on the UK to prove that you have a basic 'working knowledge' of the UK.
It will never happen, though, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas and neither will a career politician invoke a scheme like I outlined!
There needs to be a big upset, like UKIP's Euro vote, at the General Election for a new wave of politics to occur. We also need to have a 'night of the long knives' within our own area and get rid of the uniform wearing politicians we have bred who think that Shrivenham Poly is the 'be all and end all'. We've only got to look at some of the crass decisions made by our own in Main Building, PJHQ or 4-star single-service HQs to see that common sense has long since gone in some.
LJ
I've always thought that you should be 35+ to become a politician. You must have had a career for at least 10 years before and have to sit some form of general knowledge quiz on the UK to prove that you have a basic 'working knowledge' of the UK.
It will never happen, though, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas and neither will a career politician invoke a scheme like I outlined!
There needs to be a big upset, like UKIP's Euro vote, at the General Election for a new wave of politics to occur. We also need to have a 'night of the long knives' within our own area and get rid of the uniform wearing politicians we have bred who think that Shrivenham Poly is the 'be all and end all'. We've only got to look at some of the crass decisions made by our own in Main Building, PJHQ or 4-star single-service HQs to see that common sense has long since gone in some.
LJ
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Originally Posted by LJ
I'd vote Coffman for the PM and you and I could be in his cabinet ...
LJ, Defence for you old chap and Fox3WMB, would you like to take Secretary of State for Transport ?
