RAF Sidearms
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What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2?
Recall from Bob Stanford Tuck's biography that he carried a pistol on ops, and even used it to threaten a couple of squadron members. Don't think there were any details on the pistol though.
Polecat
Recall from Bob Stanford Tuck's biography that he carried a pistol on ops, and even used it to threaten a couple of squadron members. Don't think there were any details on the pistol though.
Polecat
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I do recall most of our aircrew plumping for the little PP during the work up to GW1 and then looking enviously at the massive (by comparison) Browning that one bod opted for. It had a much cooler shoulder holster too.
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Originally Posted by Banana Boy
What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.
Was a lot more common, for Luftwaffe pilots to carry sidearm on Eastern Front, and then later on the Channel Front after D-Day.
I think it was more common for RAF pilots to carry sidearms out in the Far east on ops.
I think most USAAF fighter pilots in the MTO/ETO/PTO carried their Colt Officers .45 in the M7 shoulder holster.
In Vietnam, RAAF aircrew had the Browning 9mm.
Holstered into the aircrew vest on the left side, and on the right side we had an attachable metal shoulder extension. This clipped onto the rear of the pistol to attempt some degree of accuracy at 25m.
Holstered into the aircrew vest on the left side, and on the right side we had an attachable metal shoulder extension. This clipped onto the rear of the pistol to attempt some degree of accuracy at 25m.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bad, I would imagine with imminent rescue you might have used the pistol, but what, I wonder was the RoE IN the Gulf for instance?
Don't shoot shepherds for one
Don't shoot shepherds for one
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tags, that fits with Cyprus in the 70s. What always got me was having to remove the mag when we went indoors. Clearly intruders never intrude.
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Banana Boy - In relation to your question regarding WW2 issue I found this elsewhere,
King Regs clause 2566
Automatic Pistols
1 Every officer of the general duties, equipment, accountant, medical and dental branches and every commissioned engineer, signals and armament officer must be in possession of a service type pistol or revolver throughout his period of service on the active list and will be held personally responsible that he so equipped. Every such officer, subject to clause 2, will be entitled to be issued on demand to No.1 Maintenance Unit with one Colt automatic pistol (.455") or pistol revolver No.2 Mark 1(.38") for his personal use during that period...
...3 Pistols and revolvers held by officers may at the discretion of C.O.s be handed over to the unit or station armoury for safe custody whilst the officers are on the strength of the unit.
Airmen's Arms and Accoutriements
Rifles, pistols, revolvers and bayonets will be regarded as unit equipment i.e. they will not be transferred to the airman.
Automatic Pistols
1 Every officer of the general duties, equipment, accountant, medical and dental branches and every commissioned engineer, signals and armament officer must be in possession of a service type pistol or revolver throughout his period of service on the active list and will be held personally responsible that he so equipped. Every such officer, subject to clause 2, will be entitled to be issued on demand to No.1 Maintenance Unit with one Colt automatic pistol (.455") or pistol revolver No.2 Mark 1(.38") for his personal use during that period...
...3 Pistols and revolvers held by officers may at the discretion of C.O.s be handed over to the unit or station armoury for safe custody whilst the officers are on the strength of the unit.
Airmen's Arms and Accoutriements
Rifles, pistols, revolvers and bayonets will be regarded as unit equipment i.e. they will not be transferred to the airman.
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WW2 Aircrew Sidearms
Many thanks for all your replies to my earlier question.
It looks as though there was an element of personal choice for WW2 RAF aircrew regarding whether or not they flew with a weapon, and it would appear that the default norm was NOT to carry a sidearm, at least in the European theatre.
We may all be used to carrying a weapon on ops these days, but our forefathers largely declined, it would seem. Interesting, since their chances of getting shot down were infinitely greater than the odds faced today.
BB
It looks as though there was an element of personal choice for WW2 RAF aircrew regarding whether or not they flew with a weapon, and it would appear that the default norm was NOT to carry a sidearm, at least in the European theatre.
We may all be used to carrying a weapon on ops these days, but our forefathers largely declined, it would seem. Interesting, since their chances of getting shot down were infinitely greater than the odds faced today.
BB
Something seemed to happen to me once I left the RAF Regiment and became a navigator. Up to then I wasn't a bad shot on the Bren, SLR and Sterling. Then I found out that from now on my personal weapon was to be the 9mm Browning and can honestly say that any barn door in my immediate vicinity had absolutely nothing to fear from me! Never carried one in an aircraft, the only thing I ever actually fired was a Very pistol.
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The difference between the Browning GP for civilians (before the infamous 1997 banning of all cartridge pistols) and what we were issued with in British service was immense. The former was the Rolls Royce of its day and the other certainly was not. The serial numbers rarely matched. I always found new civilian ammunition to be far superior to the nearly out of date military rounds which was all we ever seemed to get.
Being an ex Cold War warrior, the only time I was ever required to carry a side arm was on a Jungle Survival course in the jungle behind Mersing. Evidently there was a chance that Indonesian infiltrators could be there also.
Thus we were each armed with a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver, a webbing holster and belt, a lanyard attached to the butt and thence round our necks, and 6 rounds of ammo. The latter we were ordered to chamber. All of them. Couldn't we pocket them but load if required? No! Couldn't we just load 5 and leave the "live" chamber empty? No! Thus the greatest danger we faced was suddenly not from some fearsomely venomous snake nor the ever present leaches, but from blowing our own feet off should the lanyard get caught in vegetation, draw the weapon out of the holster (secured only by a press stud), and perhaps by inadvertently catching the trigger in the process, discharge the weapon.
Mercifully no such mishap occurred. The Indonesians similarly did not materialise, and all and sundry heroically hacked their way out of the impenetrable jungle onto a metaled highway where the Magnolia man was waiting, knowing that the Brits always appeared at about the same time and place and were always ready to buy up his entire stock of Ice Creams.
The ride back to Changi via Johore Bahru in a 3 tonner confirmed that the real risk all along had been the humble leach, as they were discovered one by one with disgust.
Thus we were each armed with a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver, a webbing holster and belt, a lanyard attached to the butt and thence round our necks, and 6 rounds of ammo. The latter we were ordered to chamber. All of them. Couldn't we pocket them but load if required? No! Couldn't we just load 5 and leave the "live" chamber empty? No! Thus the greatest danger we faced was suddenly not from some fearsomely venomous snake nor the ever present leaches, but from blowing our own feet off should the lanyard get caught in vegetation, draw the weapon out of the holster (secured only by a press stud), and perhaps by inadvertently catching the trigger in the process, discharge the weapon.
Mercifully no such mishap occurred. The Indonesians similarly did not materialise, and all and sundry heroically hacked their way out of the impenetrable jungle onto a metaled highway where the Magnolia man was waiting, knowing that the Brits always appeared at about the same time and place and were always ready to buy up his entire stock of Ice Creams.
The ride back to Changi via Johore Bahru in a 3 tonner confirmed that the real risk all along had been the humble leach, as they were discovered one by one with disgust.
Apparently the commonest injury on the jungle survival course was the machete bite (self inflicted during over enthusiastic hacking).
I'd forgotten all about the Magnolia man but that definitely takes me back
I'd forgotten all about the Magnolia man but that definitely takes me back
I love the idea of the empty live chamber. Do you understand which chamber is live? Not an easy one to answer, especially in the heat of battle, and depending upon whether your pistol is single-action or self-cocking and which way you employ the latter.
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The serial numbers rarely matched.
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That sounds like the standard B/S I heard from my fellow aircrew every time we dit GDT (or CCS in later years).
Get inside 50m of me (for real) with an SLP in my hands, and you are likely to be going to hospital.
Get within 25m, and you are likely to be going to an undertaker.
Dad was on Beaufighters in the Second World War and had a .38 S&W which he carried overseas, but not issued in UK (as a nightfighter pilot).
He was on 603 (City of Edinburgh) for escort & anti shipping over the Med and used to hang the pistol alongside the P bottle in the cockpit when flying. All the aircrew (he was NCO pilot) carried them at all times in Africa, he tells of a chum who left the pub in Nigeria and Dad had to take the pistol off him when he wanted to shoot at an oncoming car!
Not having the pistol on him when he was shot down meant that it sank with the aircraft, not that it was much of a consideration at the time.
He was on 603 (City of Edinburgh) for escort & anti shipping over the Med and used to hang the pistol alongside the P bottle in the cockpit when flying. All the aircrew (he was NCO pilot) carried them at all times in Africa, he tells of a chum who left the pub in Nigeria and Dad had to take the pistol off him when he wanted to shoot at an oncoming car!
Not having the pistol on him when he was shot down meant that it sank with the aircraft, not that it was much of a consideration at the time.
I doubt I could have thrown one 25m, ExAscot.
Not sure exactly what you're saying there, but if I'm answering the right question, yes, I think I could shoot someone with either weapon at 25m. I think I had greater confidence in the Browning, though.
I bought a 357 Ruger in the States some years ago and I have to say it was completely bomb proof. It it wasn't for its weight, it would have been my small arm of choice as a flyer.
Not sure exactly what you're saying there, but if I'm answering the right question, yes, I think I could shoot someone with either weapon at 25m. I think I had greater confidence in the Browning, though.
I bought a 357 Ruger in the States some years ago and I have to say it was completely bomb proof. It it wasn't for its weight, it would have been my small arm of choice as a flyer.