Red Arrows to get F16s!
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"That money should be spent on the front line".
A rather naive statement Navaleye.
What constitutes "the front line?" In the days when swords were the only weapon possessed by a primitive army, your suggestion might have had some value in buying more swords for the foot soldiers who would employ them on the battlefield in an uncomplicated slugfest. However, as soon as disposable munitions arrived, such as arrows, and tactics and mobility started to develop, a large and ever increasing amount of support became necessary behind the front line. Nowadays the proportion of infrastructure, logistics, sustainability stocks, training, management, recruiting and political education needed to maintain a minimal front line capability is simply mind boggling and hugely expensive.
Napoleon, who understood a thing or two about the effective employment of state violence, said that in combat the value of the moral compared to the physical was as 3 to 1. The part played by ceremonial, pomp, displays of martial qualities etc in strengthening a nation's defence capabilities should not be underestimated. They contribute significantly to front line effectiveness by encouraging pride, confidence, strength of resolve and self esteem, both within the military and amongst the civilian population without whose support we would have no defence.
Getting rid of ceremonial uniforms, parades and display teams would be an empty, meaningless gesture, would not help the front line in the slightest, indeed it would degrade its effectiveness.
A rather naive statement Navaleye.
What constitutes "the front line?" In the days when swords were the only weapon possessed by a primitive army, your suggestion might have had some value in buying more swords for the foot soldiers who would employ them on the battlefield in an uncomplicated slugfest. However, as soon as disposable munitions arrived, such as arrows, and tactics and mobility started to develop, a large and ever increasing amount of support became necessary behind the front line. Nowadays the proportion of infrastructure, logistics, sustainability stocks, training, management, recruiting and political education needed to maintain a minimal front line capability is simply mind boggling and hugely expensive.
Napoleon, who understood a thing or two about the effective employment of state violence, said that in combat the value of the moral compared to the physical was as 3 to 1. The part played by ceremonial, pomp, displays of martial qualities etc in strengthening a nation's defence capabilities should not be underestimated. They contribute significantly to front line effectiveness by encouraging pride, confidence, strength of resolve and self esteem, both within the military and amongst the civilian population without whose support we would have no defence.
Getting rid of ceremonial uniforms, parades and display teams would be an empty, meaningless gesture, would not help the front line in the slightest, indeed it would degrade its effectiveness.
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Dear all.
As the author of the Airforces Monthly article on 736 Naval Air Squadron I would like to clear up a couple of points;
At NO time during my interview with the CO did he, or I, mention the RAF Red Arrows! Why would we when the article focus is the role carried out by the naval 'Aggressor' squadron. I still have the recorded interview on my dictaphone and the original article which I submitted to the editor. Both prove that the 'Reds' were never spoken of.
The mention of future replcement of FAA and RAF 100sqn Hawk T1 / T1A for their respective roles being older 'Block' F-16 was a wishful thinking idea. As most of you will know, the possible replcement aircraft is on-going and no formal announcment has been made, and is not expected for some time.
I have been inundated with messages and phone calls today regarding the very poor on-line article and I'm very annoyed that again the 'Daily Fail' and others can write such drivel!
Again I will state that at NO time did Lt Cdr Flatman mention the RAF Red Arrows.
Thank you all.
As the author of the Airforces Monthly article on 736 Naval Air Squadron I would like to clear up a couple of points;
At NO time during my interview with the CO did he, or I, mention the RAF Red Arrows! Why would we when the article focus is the role carried out by the naval 'Aggressor' squadron. I still have the recorded interview on my dictaphone and the original article which I submitted to the editor. Both prove that the 'Reds' were never spoken of.
The mention of future replcement of FAA and RAF 100sqn Hawk T1 / T1A for their respective roles being older 'Block' F-16 was a wishful thinking idea. As most of you will know, the possible replcement aircraft is on-going and no formal announcment has been made, and is not expected for some time.
I have been inundated with messages and phone calls today regarding the very poor on-line article and I'm very annoyed that again the 'Daily Fail' and others can write such drivel!
Again I will state that at NO time did Lt Cdr Flatman mention the RAF Red Arrows.
Thank you all.
It is probably way too late now but I have thought for a while there is a place for the Gripen (or similar) in the RAF (and RN) inventory.
Numbers are ever decreasing and a high end mix of Typhoon/F-35 force is making the problem worse. we seem locked into the we can't afford many so it had better be capable - oh there are very expensive, we can't afford many loop.
Running a force of Gripens as well as being a much cheaper alternative to Typhoon/F-35 for many less demanding tasks could also free up say the Typhoon force for more deployments by taking over UK QRA if needed.
From what I have read about the Gripen lite proposal to replace the T-38 for the USAF there is a train of thought of a first tour on a Gripen would be much more economic while the driver learns his trade.
How much do you save by getting Hawk T2 instead?
Numbers are ever decreasing and a high end mix of Typhoon/F-35 force is making the problem worse. we seem locked into the we can't afford many so it had better be capable - oh there are very expensive, we can't afford many loop.
Running a force of Gripens as well as being a much cheaper alternative to Typhoon/F-35 for many less demanding tasks could also free up say the Typhoon force for more deployments by taking over UK QRA if needed.
From what I have read about the Gripen lite proposal to replace the T-38 for the USAF there is a train of thought of a first tour on a Gripen would be much more economic while the driver learns his trade.
How much do you save by getting Hawk T2 instead?
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Normally I wouldn't share it, however it's the only one out there that I can see.
I would start a new one but I am in absolutely no position to be bringing issues to light to the government at this moment in time that is Forces related - I feel it's not my place.
Perhaps one of the currently serving Officers (or even past) on here could start a new one, who have had experience with jets. Their opinion will carry more weight, I suspect.
I would start a new one but I am in absolutely no position to be bringing issues to light to the government at this moment in time that is Forces related - I feel it's not my place.
Perhaps one of the currently serving Officers (or even past) on here could start a new one, who have had experience with jets. Their opinion will carry more weight, I suspect.
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Anyone who thinks a few signatures on an e-petition, is going to make the slightest bit of difference to whichever government of the day decides what the Red Arrows are going to fly next, is obviously partaking of something of a very strong hallucinogenic nature!
-RP
-RP
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chopper2004,
Not in MOD's thoughts, chopper old chap! Just in the thoughts of one mischief-making and then soon to be retired Air Marshal (Wh**ky W*lk*r) who along with Portillo's once bankrupt and re-generated multi-millionaire military adviser (the late David Hart) thought that F-16 was a better platform than EFA (now Typhoon). They also had the ill-found notion that the planned SR(A1236), now Storm Shadow, would be better launched from underneath a main spar strengthened Tristar! I know this is true because I was summoned to Portaloo's office on the 6th floor to brief him and them on SR(A)1236 and refute their argument!
They were doing nothing more than being a disruptive influence and mischief making to their own advantage!
I would not, therefore, put any credence in the notion that 'the MOD' had F-16 in its thoughts in the 90s. The offer you mention had been stoked by the AM (who had nothing to do with procurement at the time) and Hart talking out of turn with the USAF!
Bloggs
This is not the first time F-16 has been in our thoughts.
They were doing nothing more than being a disruptive influence and mischief making to their own advantage!
I would not, therefore, put any credence in the notion that 'the MOD' had F-16 in its thoughts in the 90s. The offer you mention had been stoked by the AM (who had nothing to do with procurement at the time) and Hart talking out of turn with the USAF!
Bloggs
Cheers Blogs,
Though laughingly the pipe dream about the Tristar being used as an airborne cruise missile launcher reminds me of the proposal across the pond
It would have made a certain company which owns my local airport very very happy as they modified one Tri-Motor as a launch vehicle for Stargazer
So everything was a wee wet pipe dream re F-16 in RAF service ....
Cheers
Though laughingly the pipe dream about the Tristar being used as an airborne cruise missile launcher reminds me of the proposal across the pond
It would have made a certain company which owns my local airport very very happy as they modified one Tri-Motor as a launch vehicle for Stargazer
So everything was a wee wet pipe dream re F-16 in RAF service ....
Cheers
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Genstabler,
When I was sat in the desert with vast amounts of bullets and mortars whizzing past my ears (not ours btw), and no body armour, thanks to lack of funds in the budget (we shared, I kid you not), the first thing that made my heart glow was the thought of my No1 and 5 uniform sat in my wardrobe back in Blighty. My soul sprang heaven bound as a dreamt of being met after my deployment with a Band, a lovely parade (medals and gloves) and a beautiful flypast...a motorcycle/parachute display team also entered my dream.
What utter tosh! The finery of the Victorian age has no place in our modern, cash strapped military.
When I was sat in the desert with vast amounts of bullets and mortars whizzing past my ears (not ours btw), and no body armour, thanks to lack of funds in the budget (we shared, I kid you not), the first thing that made my heart glow was the thought of my No1 and 5 uniform sat in my wardrobe back in Blighty. My soul sprang heaven bound as a dreamt of being met after my deployment with a Band, a lovely parade (medals and gloves) and a beautiful flypast...a motorcycle/parachute display team also entered my dream.
What utter tosh! The finery of the Victorian age has no place in our modern, cash strapped military.