Red Arrows to get F16s!

[Lima Juliet]

Yeah, right...

Red Arrow could be replaced by second-hand America F-16 jets says MoD | UK | News | Daily Express

What a stupid idea. Introduce a jet for a single squadron with its own unique spare parts supply and that is more complicated to maintain than their current training aircraft. I would also be interested to know about the MOD source that thinks that being 'supersonic' is a positive benefit for an air display aircraft!

LJ

[orca]

What a ridiculous extrapolation of a few words spoken about one specific unit's role and a possible (not probable or potential) aircraft type to replace their current ones.

[Runaway Gun]

But still, one shouldn't be too surprised if such a crazy thing were to happen. This is the RAF remember?

[Archimedes]

The AFM article was written by a PPruner, so he may be able to add clarity, but even a quick read of the article demonstrates that it's another case of the Express's fixation with the Red Arrows.

To my reading, Tim Flatman's quote can refer only to the re-equipment of 736NAS. There is no reference at all to the Red Arrows, just as TF's observation - omitted by the Express - that his reference to F-16s represents 'wishful thinking at the moment' illustrates that the Express, once again, is at best misrepresenting through incompetence or incomprehension. The discussion in AFM appears to have nothing at all to do with possible re-equipment of one of the only two RAF units the Express appears to have heard of...

[chopper2004]

1995 offer

This is not the first time F-16 has been in our thoughts. According to a short paragraph in one of the 1995 editions of Air International, we were offered a squadron of F-16 AS interim measure between the F.3 and Typhoon ...(as with the Italian Air Force)

The most obvious problem is the AAR issue ...cannot convert Tristar or VC-10 for boom but then the offer also came with some KC-135

Cheers

[Evalu8ter]

Surely it's cheaper to contract out the 100 Sqn / FRADU role?

Something like this perhaps?

Discovery Air Defence Services - Home

I'm sure if the contract specified AI equipped aggressors then either the rumoured ex-GAF F4s or some used F16/18 or MiG-29 could be included in the mix?

Can't see the capital spend to replace the airframes, but a 5 year contract might attract enough interest.

[Lima Juliet]

Why would you spend £18M a copy for old and knackered Danish F16s when you could have shiney new Hawk TMk2s for ~£6M? You can put some kit in the T2s, like a RHWR and a simple EW Pod to emit beeps and squeeks to emulate an aggressor - give it the same datalink and it can receive the PPLI from the Blue Forces it is attacking and then that cuts down on the weight penalty of lugging around a big RADAR?

You would also then have a sustainable fleet of Hawks rather than the pitiful amount we have for MFTS?

LJ

[chopper2004]

or as EVal suggested - there are a number of other companies around such as Draken Intl

Draken International

At Farnborough they signed a contract with these lovely folks (yep I did shake their hand before and after pic) below below on the 3rd day to buy more L-159E (one used to deal with a lot of these folks re the Sikorsky s-76 production years ago). The deal is for 28 airframes - 24 airworthy and 4 broken up ..all inclusive USD $25.8m .



Also the providers of Alpha Jets to the premier of Marvel's Avengers - , being Air USA and they DO have Hawks

Our Aircraft | Air USA

Cheers

[Lima Juliet]

Yup, sorry, that £4-5M was the through life maintenance costs per aircraft (£120M). The unit cost of T2s was £16M (£450M for 28 aircraft). However, there would still be savings to be had by having a bigger fleet of similar aircraft rather than introducing an ageing, more complex and different type in small numbers.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Chopper

OK, OK, where do I sign?

LJ

[CH2]

F16s.....really

Nothing new with that idea!

Bones to the grave as the Cobra takes on the Viper ? FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast

[Genstabler]

I'd have thought it would be in BAe's commercial interests to offer an austere Hawk T2 optimised for aerobatics at an attractive price. There could be interest from a number of air forces, such as India and Saudi as well as the Reds.

[Matt2725]

I suspect this is the MoDs way of forcing the hand of BAe to offer the T2 at a slightly more attractive price.

BAe also has a large business stake in the Red Arrows so I can't see them letting this one pass.

[Willard Whyte]

Given the price that BAEs charges for additions to basic spec is somewhat akin to Porsche's mark-ups, a stripped out Hawk would no doubt cost more than a standard version.

[orca]

Evalu8ter,

You might be right about contracting out the FRADU role, but that isn't 736's job. 736 uses those duties traditionally assigned to FRADU and NFSF(FW) as a vehicle to provide the RN with a core of current and competent FW operators. There are other places to train and maintain your maritime expertise such as the USN and Marine Nationale, and there are one or two slots open in the Typhoon world - but unless you have a NAS at the hub you don't have a cadre.

But the headline is that everyone here agrees: Lt Cdr Flatman made one remark about his own unit, never mentioned the RAF or the Reds, or war fighting, or funding and for what he is tasked to do a second hand Viper would be fine.

[Navaleye]

Or just bin the Reds and have another proper squadron rather than a pointless flying circus. We have some tranche 1 typhoons coming out of service soon. Use those if need be. The F16 idea is absurd.

[P6 Driver]

Or just bin the Reds and have another proper squadron rather than a pointless flying circus

Not keen on them then...

In your opinion, should ALL display teams of any kind be disbanded, or is it just the Red Arrows you'd like to see the end of?

[Evalu8ter]

Orca,
Duly noted - wasn't the previous incarnation of Fradu / 736 joint civ/military? Might be quite useful to have a high performance AI jet as the interregnum betwixt Harrier and Dave with a mixture of guys flying it...

Naval eye,
Nice - should we burn Victory as firewood too?

Chopper and LJ,
I remember those ladies from Farnborough. As they were clearly subject matter experts I did consider seeing if they were available for some 1v2 DACT but then work got in the way again....shame, would have been some interesting post merge manoeuvring!

[Navaleye]

Surely the defence budget exists to provide defence. Buying new aircraft for display team is a waste of scarce resources. That money should be spent on the front line. That applies to all three services unless they can be funded by other means.

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ...

All smoke and mirrors mate ... the 'truth' is closer to hand

Proposed Scheme : Red Arrows

But don't tell the Media