Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

IRAQ 3?

Old 10th Aug 2014, 23:51
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 809
Blunders, changing sides, enemy of my enemy is my friend, compromises, nothing changed since the dawn of time then!

This all started when, no it didn't yes it did, around the merry go round we go, as we all try to win the battle of opinion on what history will show. At the end of the day, that history will be written by the victor with "good fact"
rh200 is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 07:02
  #62 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,593
Sadly you can't eliminate an idea, at least not during the term of a democratic Government, especially one rooted in the 8th Century.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 08:11
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In a mid life crisis
Posts: 48
True Pontias - which is a real worry because Social Media in the 21C allows ideas to spread globally on the click of a mouse rather than at the pace of an advancing army. Even if their Caliphate ideals and barbarian methods were built before and during a time when Saladin and Richard the Lionheart were fighting each other, ISIS today are not limited by the range of a crossbow and endurance of a horse. They can send their medieval ideals right into the living room of every sympathizer across the Globe. They can exploit the checks and balances of modern Democracy knowing we can only fight them within the constraints of domestic and international law and when in the right phase of an Election Cycle. Meanwhile, the sympathizer within our midst can jump on a budget airline and join the real fight or start a fire in his own (our) backyard. And then you add in Sunni v Shia, Persian v Arab, East v West and a few ‘minor mistakes’ by you know who in drawing lines down maps.
Overall, its a battle we still haven’t learnt how to fight. Then again, perhaps their weakness is they have now given themselves a name. Like AQ, we now have ‘something’ to label and strike for the next 10 years until a new mutation comes along. And I have no doubt the less democratic Governments also now have a new label they can use on anyone they don't like.
There is a role for the military and air power in all this buts its part of a gigantic bag of tricks that goes well beyound the military. It is my personal view the military and Security Services can only treat the symptoms by holding the line against any physical threat to provide a breathing space for other to act, but its people as diverse as computer nerds, social workers in an emigrant community, moderate religious leaders and even parents who need to fight this one...
What a Mess…
BP
Brewers Droop is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 09:09
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Under the umbrella of a withdrawing/reducing ME presence after nearly 25 years of Western operations in the region, this has been a well-timed incursion by ISIS. Relatively un-opposed thus far, I personally agree that swift and overwhelming action is required to stem the influence but this has all the hallmarks of drawing us into another Afghanistan-style conflict with no fixed end. The outcome would still be a self-governing, strong, democratic Iraq but I remain sceptical it can be achieved - it certainly won't be done through sole use of air strikes as others here have said.

This is already a mess. It can only get worse without Western intervention.

The problem the British military are cut to such a small scale these days that one has to ask "who can we send?!" The Times article today says our Tory MPs are crying to send UK jets.
MSOCS is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 09:59
  #65 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,593
who are they

When we label these people, a BRITON from Portsmouth, the press prints a picture so we all know what he really was.

When the press says many are from South Asia, where is that? On my Atlas that means Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, at a pinch, Sri Lanka, really?
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 11:08
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 928
Conservative Party are probably split on the issue.

In todays Telegraph pretty heartrending stories about the plight of the ordinary victims of this colossal failure.
Also, the PM refuses to reconvene UK Parliament, whilst his erstwhile arch rival the Mayor of London and soon to be an MP , advocates much further protective measures for the Kurdish population. He means the UK fighting for them, I think - "do everything in our power". Be interesting if he ever makes it as PM.


It would be an utter tragedy if we did not defend the Kurds - Telegraph


It sort of surprises me that the western intelligence agencies are so caught on the hop by all of this - probably they weren't - they must have been able to spot the signs of this offensive, and warned accordingly, but were possibly simply ignored. More probably that western politicians and leaders have ignored the cues for a variety of reasons - Obama wants to leave a legacy that no combat soldiers are deployed again on his last term, Cameron wants be elected again and another war, on his watch, wont advance that cause. Other Europeans have neither the means or the support to go it alone.
I wonder what Putin makes of all of this? Has he taken a stance? I'm more interested, and tend to actually listen to what he says, more than our own side.I always remember Blair's sickly face when Putin stood alongside him and said there were categorically no weapons of mass destruction within Iraq, pre March 2003. He would know.


Also genuine question, where does everybody with a grudge against a non believer get the high amounts of arms and ammunition to fight these wars anyway? I mean ISIS, Kurds - how do they acquire them? Is it not simpler to eliminate and expose the source, dry out the flow? Pressurize the suppliers? Or is that rocking the boat a bit too much?
Hangarshuffle is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 11:15
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Age: 50
Posts: 180
Also genuine question, where does everybody with a grudge against a non believer get the high amounts of arms and ammunition to fight these wars anyway? I mean ISIS, Kurds - how do they acquire them?
'Friends' in Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as well as weapons looted from both the Syrian and Iraqi governments and taken from weaker allies/other rebel groups.
skydiver69 is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 11:18
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
When the press says many are from South Asia, where is that? On my Atlas that means Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, at a pinch, Sri Lanka, really?
Indonesia for one. They have healthy extreme Muslim groups, although the Indonesians have been giving them a good whack over the last 5 years.

They don't suffer from the west's inhibitions about opening fire so to speak

Edit
Jemaah Islamiah - Southeast Asian militant Islamist terrorist organization dedicated to the establishment of a Daulah Islamiyah (regional Islamic caliphate) in Southeast Asia.
500N is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 13:04
  #69 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,593
Originally Posted by Hangarshuffle View Post
Also, the PM refuses to reconvene UK Parliament,
Actually what would he achieve by recalling parliament?

How many party hacks would cut short their holidays in Cardiff or the Caribbean?

COBRA and the COS are quite capable of setting the ball rolling. While his friend is still on the golf course, Dave is hardly likely to offer more than the great one has committed.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 13:27
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 928
Well possibly (in answer to PN, playing Devils Advocate), 1.We are partly responsible for the current crisis in that we left a terrible vacuum, and I believe many in the world community are even now still looking for the USA and the UK to supply some sort of answer and lead (both also being Permanent members of the UN security council). 2.We are a committing our Armed Forces to humanitarian aid in a very dangerous part of the world with a real risk for the aircrews/SF involved- is this not worthy of recall alone, or is everyone so now blasé and used to UK casualties on operations they simply no longer really care and (b) anyway what are the parameters here of the aid? 3. There would be a possibility that this could badly escalate, and UK will look even further flat footed. 4. UK media pressure and public debate is intense and will increase. 5. Many people feel uneasy about the Iraq war, our responsibility therein, how we left it -maybe a debate would help where we are now. 6. It wouldn't hurt. We always need leadership, guidance, direction,debate - is this not partially the role of Parliament, of our MPs?


Is so called COBRA (you all its just a room really), the people with up to it, to be left the responsibility?


The PM doesn't want to reconvene, not because he minds his holidays disrupted (this is his second at least) but because its a splitter for his backbenchers and he may again look weak (see Syria bombing last). (Britain is weak militarily anyway these recent years and this again this would be an opportunity for mischief from his enemies on all benches).
But its a balancing act for him - the pictures of the dead children, women, innocents are very hard for politicians to deal with.


But I fully concede recalling Parliament may bring nothing useful at all. Just more hot air.
Hangarshuffle is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 14:25
  #71 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,593
500N, my point, as I am sure you realised, is not that some Indonesians might be fighting in the Middle East, but that 'Asian' and 'South Asian' blackens hundreds of millions of ordinary people when we really mean something else.

We all know the country from whence the largest contingent is drawn from even if they are now known as Britons.

HS, quite, though of course Parliament might do what they did for Syria.

BTW, is there still a problem with Syria?

Last week's news was Hamas and Israel and that now seems to be replaced by Iraq. Libya and Syria are so last month. As for Egypt, that must be a sea of tranquillity.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 16:57
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London Town
Posts: 166
Tornado to Deploy to Cyprus

British To Use RAF Tornados In Iraq Mission
Blue Bottle is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 17:56
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Just another sign of how useless these politicians we have are. I broadly support the idea of helping the civilians of Iraq as our past actions are what have left them in this terrible situation. So now they need the Tornado GR4, such a shame that 12sq, 13sq, 14sq and 617sq have all been disbanded recently by the very same politicians who now want to use them. This will put a lot of pressure on the remaining three squadrons. I will say it again, these politicians are just useless.
Ronald Reagan is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 17:59
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 803
Let's not forget of those 3, 1 is fully in Herrick, 1 is prepping to go to Herrick, one has not long returned from Herrick and is due to disband.
downsizer is online now  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 18:16
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Very true downsizer, simply insane isn't it.
Ronald Reagan is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 20:03
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nottingham
Age: 71
Posts: 221
Tornad To support Aid Mission

What are they going to deliver hellfire and Brimstone!
Prangster is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 20:30
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,744
I refer you honourable gentlemen to my oft repeated comments: Why have we wasted £billions to introduce a tanker we didn't need yet, more £billions for two giant war canoes that will not actually do what we need (in 6 years' time!) and, even more £billions for a (very) few aircraft to put on them? In the mean time, we have dumped many of the assets we actually need!

OAP
Onceapilot is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 20:55
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 928
C4 coverage this evening.

I thought tonight, fantastic - I word I wouldn't use lightly. Iraq helicopter aircrew battled in to that mountain, dropped water, picked up 25, fought and flew back out, returning fire as they went even at 3 or 4000 feet. Covered well at great risk by the C4 reporter and cameramen, a veteran of 1991.
Looking at those kids on the helicopter, hard not for my previous non intervention stance to slacken.
I mean WTF? its not even that far from the Turkish border.


Also RM Dunlop from 1991 on BBC Radio 4 news this evening, good summary I thought.
Hangarshuffle is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 21:01
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
Hangar

I was watching that video somewhere else.

At the end as they took off, was there a kid hanging onto the Weapon stand that stuck out of the door and was dragged in ?

Thought it was pretty gutsy all round
500N is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 21:10
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: England
Posts: 1,867
Why have we wasted £billions to introduce a tanker we didn't need yet
OAP: let it go. We most certainly did/do need a new tanker. The VC10s were past it and the Trishaw were pretty close behind. We might have got another 5 years out of them, maybe, but we still needed a replacement and your beloved Trijet couldn't fill the requirement!

more £billions for two giant war canoes that will not actually do what we need (in 6 years' time!)
Regardless of whether we need them now or in 6 years, there is a physical reality here: it takes years to design, build, conduct training and complete sea trials. The carriers, whether or not you believe in the requirement, will be worked up and ready to accept their aircraft when (if) JSF ever arrives.

Can't disagree with your last point though: the RN have mortgaged their future on 2 very big shiny new toys; whilst the RAF have mortgaged their future on a (wrong-type of) 5th gen fighter/bomber.
Roland Pulfrew is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.