Missing yacht
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MP Gerald Howarth was just on the BBC news and stated that whilst the Hercules would do the best it could, the UK desperately needs an MPA that could do the job properly.
Nuf said.
Nuf said.
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One presumes that Boeing will have a P8 at Farnborough in a few weeks, together with some rather convincing lobbyists.
I know little about the maritime and/or SAR arena (one trip in a Nimrod in 1985 where the crew found a Russian sub - Tango Class?). But even the most hard nosed individual cannot deny it is somewhat bizarre that the best the UK can do is an enthusiastically crewed C130.
I know little about the maritime and/or SAR arena (one trip in a Nimrod in 1985 where the crew found a Russian sub - Tango Class?). But even the most hard nosed individual cannot deny it is somewhat bizarre that the best the UK can do is an enthusiastically crewed C130.
Correct 'Vitro, and a Tanker, and ship borne STOVL, and ships, and technicians etc, etc.
Spoke to this person when he was a cog, made no difference apparently.
Usual story, bleat after leaving the job. No friend of UKMil in my opinion.
OAP
Spoke to this person when he was a cog, made no difference apparently.
Usual story, bleat after leaving the job. No friend of UKMil in my opinion.
OAP
Fox3 demonstrates that a picture can tell a story.
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late-joiner,
I know what the SOLAS rules are, unfortunately IMO keep changing their minds on the practicality of some of these rules. Read about some of the changes here
Fast Rescue Boats
The US Coastguard operate ships, FW and rotary. I suggest that they have got a far better idea of how to operate in this region than any of the armchair experts
The search area is expanding far more rapidly than we will be able to effectively cover, note that I said effectively. The hull of the yacht is the best datum and it is sad that the cargo vessel did not stay until a more capable unit arrived. The hardest job of a search coordinator is to decide that it is time to call a halt, under the circumstances, with only the information from the media, who are we to question his decision?
Heads down, look out for the flak
I know what the SOLAS rules are, unfortunately IMO keep changing their minds on the practicality of some of these rules. Read about some of the changes here
Fast Rescue Boats
The US Coastguard operate ships, FW and rotary. I suggest that they have got a far better idea of how to operate in this region than any of the armchair experts
The search area is expanding far more rapidly than we will be able to effectively cover, note that I said effectively. The hull of the yacht is the best datum and it is sad that the cargo vessel did not stay until a more capable unit arrived. The hardest job of a search coordinator is to decide that it is time to call a halt, under the circumstances, with only the information from the media, who are we to question his decision?
Heads down, look out for the flak
BTW What would we have done if the incident occurred JUST inside our SAR area of responsibility and the onus had been on us?
That is, plead with the US, France and Canada to do the job for us, with their respective MPA forces.
We would also expect them to pay for the whole thing from their own funding lines too.
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No, and we never did "carry out searches for people around the world". We carried out SAR within our area of responsibility. If we deployed for SAR it was either to support a fast jet deployment or to cover the overseas flights of Her Majesty.
It has become fashionable to lament the passing of our MPA by ex kipper mates suggesting/implying that we would have got involved with every high profile SAR effort, all over the globe.
We never did this and we would not be doing it now even if we still had an MPA. If we got involved with some random search for some random yacht/ship/aircraft outwith our area it was because we happened to be carrying out ops in that neck of the woods already. Not because we were sent there to do it. As I've posted before, despite the PR value, SAR is not a significant factor when it comes to deciding military priorities.
It has become fashionable to lament the passing of our MPA by ex kipper mates suggesting/implying that we would have got involved with every high profile SAR effort, all over the globe.
We never did this and we would not be doing it now even if we still had an MPA. If we got involved with some random search for some random yacht/ship/aircraft outwith our area it was because we happened to be carrying out ops in that neck of the woods already. Not because we were sent there to do it. As I've posted before, despite the PR value, SAR is not a significant factor when it comes to deciding military priorities.
I have been involved in at least 5 SAR incidents outside (sometimes by 1000's of miles) of the UK SAR AOR. Three times because we just happened to be flying in the approximate area (one incident after actually hearing the Mayday on Ch16), once because we were in the country and we were asked (in the middle of the night) if we could get airborne and assist, which we did after gaining the appropriate authority) and once (several sorties over several days) when we were asked to redeploy whilst operating in the Indian Ocean because those coordinating the search again knew of the strengths of the Nimrod and requested our assistance.
Last edited by MFC_Fly; 22nd May 2014 at 08:29. Reason: Spollin misteaks
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An interesting and relevant story here about the dangers of calling off a search early.
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.
Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record
One quote jumps out.
"It proves the point about never giving up hope"
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.
Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record
One quote jumps out.
"It proves the point about never giving up hope"
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Missing Fishermen Found
An interesting and relevant story here about the dangers of calling off a search early.
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.
Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record
One quote jumps out.
"It proves the point about never giving up hope"
It also illustrates, yet again, our sad lack of MPA. MRA4 would have tied down this datum within a couple of hours on day 1 of the search.
And this is perhaps, the least important role of MPA.
8 x P8s and soon, please.
2 guys in small boat with no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment and drifting for three days. Aircraft and ships searching in a very small area with no joy. Saved by a stroke of luck.
Missing fishermen found safe at sea two days after disappearing in fog off Aberdeenshire coast - Daily Record
One quote jumps out.
"It proves the point about never giving up hope"
It also illustrates, yet again, our sad lack of MPA. MRA4 would have tied down this datum within a couple of hours on day 1 of the search.
And this is perhaps, the least important role of MPA.
8 x P8s and soon, please.
no radio, no beacons, no survival equipment
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As a former ARCC Controller (Duty Manager in today's PC times
) I used to ask the relevant MCA MRCC for a SARIS plot so I could brief the Nimrod and/or SAR hel crews when dealing with a protracted maritme search. SARIS, or probably SARIS 3 or 4 by now, uses various parameters: LKP, course, surface wind, tide data, sea state, type of vessel etc to determine a Search Datum and Search Area. It can also suggest search height and speed to fly for the crews. Clearly, the search area expands with time so it would be very interesting to learn how large the search area has grown by now. MRCC Falmouth has responsibility for long-range SAR within the UKSRR and often provides assistance to vessels on a global basis, particularly when a UK registered distress beacon is detected. Their professional staffs will no doubt have been liaising fairly closely with their US counterparts in this incident. I believe that the USCG has a similar system and they would have used the search data as evidence when considering their initial decision to call a halt to their efforts, never an easy decision but someone has to make it.
My gut feeling is that teams of trained professionals have been cajoled into re-starting the search by the US and/or UK Government(s) following the groundswell of uninformed public opinion. I have been involved in many searches for swimmers and people in life-rafts in much smaller search areas over the years and, sadly, they rarely have a good outcome. Whilst it is admirable that the friends and families of the missing sailors are keeping their spirits up with their kitchen table efforts, I do hope someone has had the sense to paint them a more credible picture so that they can prepare themselves for the inevitable bad news.
I do hope I'm proved wrong but I truly believe I won't be; my thoughts are with the families at this tragic time.
) I used to ask the relevant MCA MRCC for a SARIS plot so I could brief the Nimrod and/or SAR hel crews when dealing with a protracted maritme search. SARIS, or probably SARIS 3 or 4 by now, uses various parameters: LKP, course, surface wind, tide data, sea state, type of vessel etc to determine a Search Datum and Search Area. It can also suggest search height and speed to fly for the crews. Clearly, the search area expands with time so it would be very interesting to learn how large the search area has grown by now. MRCC Falmouth has responsibility for long-range SAR within the UKSRR and often provides assistance to vessels on a global basis, particularly when a UK registered distress beacon is detected. Their professional staffs will no doubt have been liaising fairly closely with their US counterparts in this incident. I believe that the USCG has a similar system and they would have used the search data as evidence when considering their initial decision to call a halt to their efforts, never an easy decision but someone has to make it. My gut feeling is that teams of trained professionals have been cajoled into re-starting the search by the US and/or UK Government(s) following the groundswell of uninformed public opinion. I have been involved in many searches for swimmers and people in life-rafts in much smaller search areas over the years and, sadly, they rarely have a good outcome. Whilst it is admirable that the friends and families of the missing sailors are keeping their spirits up with their kitchen table efforts, I do hope someone has had the sense to paint them a more credible picture so that they can prepare themselves for the inevitable bad news.
I do hope I'm proved wrong but I truly believe I won't be; my thoughts are with the families at this tragic time.
My gut feeling is that teams of trained professionals have been cajoled into re-starting the search by the US and/or UK Government(s) following the groundswell of uninformed public opinion. I have been involved in many searches for swimmers and people in life-rafts in much smaller search areas over the years and, sadly, they rarely have a good outcome. Whilst it is admirable that the friends and families of the missing sailors are keeping their spirits up with their kitchen table efforts, I do hope someone has had the sense to paint them a more credible picture so that they can prepare themselves for the inevitable bad news.
The watchword for the families however is "closure"
El G.
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Comedy of error.
The two missing Scottish fishers story is reading like a comedy of errors. Although they may have made mistakes, once the fishermen realised they were in the schum, they seemed to do ok - that they are alive is testimony to that. One of them had 62 years experience on the sea, hardly a novice. Boat looked ok for what it was for - inshore work.
The UKs search efforts seem pretty poor on the face of it here. Flight Deck Helmet on, but I mean at the end of the day they were off the coast of East Scotland, in an area within range of land based helicopters, offshore support vessels, blooming uncle tom cobley....still couldn't find them. I find that hard to fathom.
After all that, reads as though the Montrose lifeboat actually sank the fishing boat when it had in tow going back in.
BBC News - Missing fishermen 'survived on two biscuits'
If there is a way back to ever getting a UK MPA, I don't think the RAF will get it now anyway. Will be given over to another agency, watch and see, it may happen after all of this. Face saver. Some sort of enquiry and something will be lashed up again for use. Incidentally the photos...I just wanted to google and see what we still have to improvise in a search role other than the yellow seakings...and I'm talking about looking for people 50 miles off our own coast. Hardly gives me confidence.
The UKs search efforts seem pretty poor on the face of it here. Flight Deck Helmet on, but I mean at the end of the day they were off the coast of East Scotland, in an area within range of land based helicopters, offshore support vessels, blooming uncle tom cobley....still couldn't find them. I find that hard to fathom.
After all that, reads as though the Montrose lifeboat actually sank the fishing boat when it had in tow going back in.
BBC News - Missing fishermen 'survived on two biscuits'
If there is a way back to ever getting a UK MPA, I don't think the RAF will get it now anyway. Will be given over to another agency, watch and see, it may happen after all of this. Face saver. Some sort of enquiry and something will be lashed up again for use. Incidentally the photos...I just wanted to google and see what we still have to improvise in a search role other than the yellow seakings...and I'm talking about looking for people 50 miles off our own coast. Hardly gives me confidence.
Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 22nd May 2014 at 20:13.