Missing yacht
To be honest, I have experienced both in the Atlantic in a Jeanneau 42, but never had any damage to windows. Not saying it is not possible.
Without doubt, a rogue wave could quite possibly take out some windows and cause an already weakened keel to detach.
The de-lamination, of the hull is a bit odd.
El G
Without doubt, a rogue wave could quite possibly take out some windows and cause an already weakened keel to detach.
The de-lamination, of the hull is a bit odd.
El G
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Maritime search and rescue aircraft can also drop liferafts ,food and water and other supplies as well as home in any surface craft such as ships/yachts which do not have homing equipment. Why else do you think we have such aircraft in the first place.?
The de-lamination, of the hull is a bit odd.
Having read a few Beneteau owner's websites over the last couple of days, it appears that the keel is purposely not attached to major structure (stiffening ribs), so that in the event of running aground the keel can tear away with the minimum of damage to the boat as a whole. Checking, retightening and replacement of keel bolts on Beneteaus is supposed to be a regular inspection and maintenance task.
Beneteau First 235 - O Beneteau Keel Bolts you scare me
If there were washers under the heads of the bolts which corroded and disintegrated away, this could allow the first few millimetres of movement to start a slide hammer action to fatigue the bolts and break up the hull.
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When I think of Ocean Crossing Sailboats....Benneteu's are not on my list.
Bolt on Keels are far less capable than solid Keels.
Boats like the Benneteu, Hunter, and others of similar construction are called "Clorox Bottles" for good reason.
One can argue however you want.....but if you go to sea and encounter rough water you want a boat that is built to handle those kinds of conditions.
If the Keel parted from the boat it would have capsized almost instantaneously making escape and survival very unlikely.
That is the nature of open water sailing.....bad things sometimes happen even to the most experienced and capable of Sailors.
But...that is why it is such and adventerous endeavor.
Everyone that undertakes such voyages accept those risks.
Yet, it is so tragic when it happens and good folks are lost.
Bolt on Keels are far less capable than solid Keels.
Boats like the Benneteu, Hunter, and others of similar construction are called "Clorox Bottles" for good reason.
One can argue however you want.....but if you go to sea and encounter rough water you want a boat that is built to handle those kinds of conditions.
If the Keel parted from the boat it would have capsized almost instantaneously making escape and survival very unlikely.
That is the nature of open water sailing.....bad things sometimes happen even to the most experienced and capable of Sailors.
But...that is why it is such and adventerous endeavor.
Everyone that undertakes such voyages accept those risks.
Yet, it is so tragic when it happens and good folks are lost.
Assuming the movement had disintegrated the lamination closest to the bolt head & washer, the bolt would pull through this and then come up against the intact outer lamination(s), which then tore away with the bolts.
It is shame the USN have not released some more detailed pictures publicly as the resolution on that photo is not really high enough to be absolutely sure. But to me it looks like it has taken a heavy clout rather than just delaminated.
Whale, shipping container, bloody big wave at the wrong angle - all enough to cause damage like that.
The first and last on that list have damaged pusser's greys (upto and including CVS) I've been in. So far, so lucky with shipping containers.
The first and last on that list have damaged pusser's greys (upto and including CVS) I've been in. So far, so lucky with shipping containers.
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We have Sun fish down here in Aus that seem to be a PITA for Yachties.
You quite often hear of yachts in the Sydney to Hobart hitting them,
big brutes of things.
You quite often hear of yachts in the Sydney to Hobart hitting them,
big brutes of things.
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Trimstab, while you seem to know a lot about yacht construction, this doesn't in any way qualify you to make those assertions about the crew .."a more experienced crew would have survived this". Sure, if they'd known the keel was about to fail they could have headed downwind (away from the Azores, with a leak) , crew on deck (for days, in a major storm?) But there's no evidence they had any reason to suspect the keel was the source of their leak, or about to fail. Yes a boat can sometimes be sailed without a keel but to suddenly lose one in a storm is almost certain to result in instant capsize whatever the crew experience.
But there's no evidence they had any reason to suspect the keel was the source of their leak, or about to fail
I have been in exactly this scenario myself on a solo delivery last year, and followed the procedure I described in an earlier post.
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Agreed. If you can't find the leak, then the water is probably coming up, not down. Slow ingress at the keel bolts will be hard to see, but is the likeliest cause once other more visible sources have been ruled out.
Once the leak is present, keel integrity must be presumed to have been lost.
First thing, unload the keel to keep it hanging in there for as long as possible. (reduce sail and select point of sail which minimises lateral load on the keel
Prepare the liferaft for rapid launchsurvival gear on, grab-bag to hand.
Send a no-nonsense MAYDAY - you are in very real and very imminnet danger to life.
Then pray that somebody still has the search assets, and is willing to commit them to looking for you. regardless of whether that was what they were bought for, the 'training value' can usually swing the justification if pressed hard.
Once the leak is present, keel integrity must be presumed to have been lost.
First thing, unload the keel to keep it hanging in there for as long as possible. (reduce sail and select point of sail which minimises lateral load on the keel
Prepare the liferaft for rapid launchsurvival gear on, grab-bag to hand.
Send a no-nonsense MAYDAY - you are in very real and very imminnet danger to life.
Then pray that somebody still has the search assets, and is willing to commit them to looking for you. regardless of whether that was what they were bought for, the 'training value' can usually swing the justification if pressed hard.
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I'm pleased it worked out for you, trim but not all those potential leak sources are checkable at sea. Even if the leak had been traced to the keel, your drill of everyone on deck, sail downwind (where to?) still leaves them in a sinking yacht, thousands of miles from safety, exhausted and hypothermic. Nor was your comment about "liferaft buried in a locker" borne out by the US Coastguard swimmer.
It is not often that GRP delaminates in large strips like that. Usually it breaks in chunks.
See 2:00 for glass cloth on yacht hull. Note though, the First 40.7 does not use balsa core in the hull.
If the keel had ripped out a section of the hull and torn out a layer of laminate I would expect to see a visible hole where the keel bolts were.
If you look carefully at the antifouling it appears to be abraded, also not consistent with delimitation.
There is also some damage to the anti-foul on the port side of the keel, which would not appear to be consistent with delamination
And finally what is that dark spot in the middle of the damage? It looks like the hull is holed.
http://www.first407.org/TipsOgTriks/...ec%20sheet.pdf
Last edited by Mechta; 26th May 2014 at 15:00. Reason: Link to specification
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MAIB involvement?
Will the Marine Accident Investigation Branch take the lead here? Nothing about it so far.
Marine Accident Investigation: Current investigations
Marine Accident Investigation: Current investigations
One would hope not: ridiculously expensive and, without the keel, unlikely to come to any clear conclusion that isn't obvious from the photos..
MAIB, Regulation 5
my italics
MAIB, Regulation 5
“The sole objective of a safety investigation into an accident under these Regulations shall be the prevention of future accidents through the ascertainment of its causes and circumstances.
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"Send a no-nonsense MAYDAY - you are in very real and very imminnet danger to life."
Sound judgment, FrustratedFormerFile but if I may be allowed a moment of pedantry, a MAYDAY transmission is made in respect of perilous conditions applying to the vessel only, not to the crew. Of course, the former usually precedes the latter.
Sound judgment, FrustratedFormerFile but if I may be allowed a moment of pedantry, a MAYDAY transmission is made in respect of perilous conditions applying to the vessel only, not to the crew. Of course, the former usually precedes the latter.
Gipsy Queen. If you're going to be pedantic, at least get it right
http://msi.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/St...17chapter4.pdf
and your qualifications are...? In need of refreshing, at the very least.
The transmission of a distress alert indicates that a mobile unit (ship, aircraft or other vehicle) or person is threatened by grave and imminent danger and requests immediate assistance
and your qualifications are...? In need of refreshing, at the very least.
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Why would it be expensive to salvage it? Supposedly it has a locator on it and it doesn't appear too far from the shipping lanes . Is it that difficult ? It might contain mobile phones etc that might have information on them that tells a little more of the story.