Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 17th Mar 2016, 10:47
  #1861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,037
Subsunk

Apparently the new phrase is 'Gliding Centres of Excellence' (GCOE)- if you look at the link in Cpl Clott's post at #1861

I thought that was what the VGS already were...............

My experience of COE in my day job is that they are just Management Speak for reduced capability....................

Arc

Last edited by Arclite01; 17th Mar 2016 at 10:49. Reason: Added #1861
Arclite01 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 11:13
  #1862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
All gliding clubs would welcome Air Cadets, except they would have to deny any relationship between joining the club and being in the Air Cadets!!

It would have been much less expensive (than this debacle) if HQAC/ACO had made money available to offer suitably qualified (and enthusiastic) cadets the opportunities to fly with either the GSA or BGA gliding clubs, rather akin to Flying Scholarships (from which I benefited many years ago). Having said that the hoops that the clubs would have to jump through are getting bigger and more frequent

The clubs are lacking these youngsters and whilst many offer special rates to their juniors it is the current youth element that will help drive the clubs in the future.

JM you should be ashamed of what you have achieved as there appears to have been no attempts at a quick workaround despite your many promises of working 24/7 to solve the issue.

Three serviceable airframes in two years!! The Chinese would have carved 70 airframes out of solid GRP in this time
Frelon is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 11:25
  #1863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,774
The Unique Selling Point of the air cadet organisation is (or used to be) that it offers youngsters the opportunity to learn to fly gliders at their local gliding site.

'Regional Centres of Excellence', gliding 'simulators', 'cyber courses', 'battle management courses' etc. are hardly going to be of much interest to youngsters who simply want to learn to fly a glider and get a taste of service life..... Or to their parents?

Out of interest, has anyone been told what the actual cost of recovery to the pre-2014 state would have been?
BEagle is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 11:32
  #1864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 11 GROUP
Age: 73
Posts: 1,101
Vote with your feet

The best way to show 'solidarity' and make a point is to take your expertise elsewhere (or 'regroup' out of the ATC) thereby leaving JM and his band of nit wits nothing to command or C........U....
Now that would get noticed for a 75th event.
POBJOY is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 11:34
  #1865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
Beags
offers youngsters the opportunity to learn to fly gliders at their local gliding site
......could still happen if anybody at HQAC/ACO/FTS is allowed to think outside the box. See above for local gliding clubs.
gliding 'simulators
are now called Part Task Trainers - what wankspeak is that??
Frelon is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 14:46
  #1866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,457
The Unique Selling Point of the air cadet organisation is (or used to be) that it offers youngsters the opportunity to learn to fly gliders at their local gliding site.
Isn't that what a BGA club offers?
cats_five is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 16:34
  #1867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,037
Cats

For free ??

That is the whole point. The Air Cadet movement is all inclusive..............money doesn't come into it...................or social class for that matter.

Arc
Arclite01 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 16:46
  #1868 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ulster
Age: 60
Posts: 204
Cats

Gliding clubs don't offer in addition to gliding ,camps at RAF stations, overseas camps, marksmanship, first aid training, DoE ,flying scholarships etc all in the one place .
RUCAWO is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 16:57
  #1869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,193
It would have been much less expensive (than this debacle) if HQAC/ACO had made money available to offer suitably qualified (and enthusiastic) cadets the opportunities to fly with either the GSA or BGA gliding clubs, rather akin to Flying Scholarships (from which I benefited many years ago). Having said that the hoops that the clubs would have to jump through are getting bigger and more frequent
There have been quite a few Air Cadets flying on ACO sponsored schemes in our RAFGSA club, as well as a good number who are self-funding. On the whole they have been a breath of fresh air to the club, showing quite extraordinary levels of determination and enthusiasm. One cadet last year had a 2 1/2 hour journey each way by underground and a couple of trains, and another drives a 200 mile round trip. The sad part is that as the cadets are responsible for getting themselves to the club, the most disadvantaged ones miss out.
Mechta is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 17:12
  #1870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: LONDON
Posts: 107
Please Sign Up

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124333


Come on everyone. If you haven't already done so then please sign up to the petition at the link, and please also encourage all of your friends and family to do the same. We've got one chance to rescue this, to give the air cadets of tomorrow, regardless of their background, the same opportunity that we all had. A debate in Parliament needs 100,000 signatories. This is well within reach if we all do our bit. Let's not throw the chance away.

Last edited by ATFQ; 17th Mar 2016 at 22:50.
ATFQ is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 18:56
  #1871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 63
Posts: 6,995
Many years ago my primary motivation to join the Air Cadets, as a young lad, was for the flying ... which I would suggest was the primary driver for most of us back then. Based on what I have read on this thread ... I now consider myself very fortunate indeed in gaining the experience, confidence and personal responsibility that came as a direct result of chasing after every opportunity to fly ... some of which was as a result of extramural initiative on my behalf.

Given what has been said here over some 94 Pages/1,900 Posts (and you can't all be wrong) it seems that 2FTS should take a careful look at what CAS launched today ...

Start talking to each other more in person; then we'll better appreciate the different things we all offer.

Be open-minded and receptive. Make room for imagination, creativity and innovation. Promote diverse thinking and encourage innovation from others. A good challenge should be met with a good response.

Good leadership can also be inspired by good ideas.
Quote : RAF CAS

... as it would seem that such an approach has been missing over the last two years in arriving at a High Performance Solution to the Air Cadet Gliding issue.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...3B147E9F02.pdf

Petition signed.
CoffmanStarter is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 19:00
  #1872 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
Air Cadets vs Self funding!

As a 16 year old living in south London neither I nor my parents could afford for me to follow my dream of gliding. Fortunately I was in the ATC Squadron of my Grammar school, and that allowed me to get my A & B at Hawkinge followed up by Advanced Gliding and Flying Scholarship (full PPL in those days). I went on many summer camps and a number of courses which were held at RAF Halton. I also won a reciprocal visit to Portugal as a guest of the Portuguese Air Force. All of this at the cost of a shilling per day for food!! Oh how things have changed!!
However the cadets of today have had the flying/gliding rug well and truly pulled from under their feet. I feel sure that there are some highly enthusiatic cadets out there who deserve to be awarded a gliding scholarship some time in the next two years without waiting for the Minister's promises to be fulfilled. The clubs are waiting for these enthusiastic youngsters and could (with the right funding from the ACO) fulfill their dreams too.
I feel sure that a debate in the right place could bring this funding sooner rather than later.
Get that petition signed👍👍
Frelon is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 19:07
  #1873 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,457
Our Cadets pay very little to fly. 90 pa for membership, and 8 for a winch launch and up to 30 minutes flying - a winch launch alone would cost me 8.50. It's true we don't offer all the other activities, but our cadets seem very happy spending a day on the airfield. They get very good at making sure they don't go beyond 30 minutes as it then starts costing 46p / minute, though the counting stops at somewhere a bit over 2 hours. I enjoyed flying 'for free' when I did my Silver duration, plus a few other enjoyable flights.

Like nearly all gliding clubs (and I suspect the ATC sites) public transport to the site is very poor, and that on it's own limits who can participate.
cats_five is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 19:20
  #1874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,663
The Unique Selling Point of the air cadet organisation is (or used to be) that it offers youngsters the opportunity to learn to fly gliders at their local gliding site.
This used to be so true that, in my long gone days instructing with 622, they introduced the course to enable younger cadets to do 30 launches when they were too young to solo. I was told that this was to help retain the cadets. If it was true then it is surely still true.
pulse1 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 21:49
  #1875 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uranus
Posts: 856
Coff

That would be the same 4* that selected the current VGS option out of 7 outcomes as the one to put forward to the Minister then? I don't think singling out one individual (already named) for this travesty is fair - there are a whole bunch of them with various agendas that have 'allowed' this to happen.

Personally, I think that this will be the perfect example of a failing organisation when historians look back on HMForces in years to come. Lucklustre leadership, parochial visions, political subservience, planning in isolation, wasted money and risk aversion will all feature in a report in years to come.

Or maybe we have just seen this all before and history is still repeating itself?

The B Word
The B Word is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 21:50
  #1876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,774
A part task trainer is utterly useless for teaching people to fly as it has very limited visual, no motion nor any control force feedback. How do you teach 'select, hold, trim' in something with no control forces or motion?

PTTs are fine for teaching / practising procedures and the like, but that thing in Scotland shown in Corporal Clott's link will probably lead to negative teaching.

Quite a pretty toy, but those of us who've ever taught students whose previous experience has been on MSFS and the like know full well how difficult it is to correct bad habits introduced by computer games.
BEagle is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 23:21
  #1877 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 64
Posts: 840
"Be open minded and receptive" "Promote diverse thinking" "Encourage innovation"

I presume he has never met JM.
DC10RealMan is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2016, 00:30
  #1878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,193
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/124333


Come on everyone. If you haven't already done so then please sign up to the petition at the link, and please also encourage all of your friends and family to do the same.
ATFQ, I've just got off the phone to Mechta Senior as I had sent him a link to sign the petition. He was an Air Cadet in 1944/45, and the similarities and differences with the current situation are worth a mention.
  • He had to qualify on his squadron to get the opportunity to fly, although he can't remember how.
  • His Air Cadet squadron provided him with a rail warrant to get from Chichester to Portsmouth on a Friday evening, where he would spend the weekend in a Nissen hut on the airfield.
  • The Air Cadet gliders (Kirby Cadets) had structural issues (spar problems?), so a lot of the air cadet flying was actually done on the Portsmouth Gliding Club gliders (BAC 7 & Dagling).
  • The winch was a converted balloon winch.
  • The retrieve vehicles were Beaverette armoured cars which had had the armour flame cut off to leave a sort of spaceframe (and some rather jagged skin-removing edges).
  • The chief instructor was Airspeed's test pilot, Ron Clear, whilst Frank Costin, later of Marcos Cars fame, was one of the other instructors.
  • Once a cadet had completed a thirty second flight, his training and support from his squadron would cease, hence there were a very large number of twenty eight and twenty nine second flights ;-) .
  • A lot of cadets went on to join the Portsmouth club so they could carry on flying.
  • Sharing an airfield with the Airspeed factory meant that the club and Air Cadet gliders were kept supplied with parts.
  • No one from Air Cadet headquarters ever came to see how things were run.
.

Clearly, then as now in the 'pause', the air cadet organisation was reliant on the goodwill of civilian clubs to function.
Mechta is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2016, 01:03
  #1879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lincs
Posts: 220
..... and then Cosworth?
Mandator is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2016, 01:09
  #1880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,193
Mandator, Cosworth was Frank's brother, Mike; although according to Wikipedia, Frank did design an ultralight glider with the other half of Cosworth, Keith Duckworth.
Mechta is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.