Air Cadets grounded?
A privilege to see the very last of the first generation jets still in everyday use.
At that time I was surprised that he couldn't identify "That yellow thing" and that he also went on chewing me out for exhibiting "schoolboy enthusiasm" about it.
Last edited by Haraka; 29th Dec 2017 at 17:08.
The AIR in Air Cadets
Well Beagle I think the mainstream RAF never realised that a 'training organisation' completely run by (in the main) civilian volunteers was happily training 'ab initio' youths to a solo standard with so little 'classroom' and organised briefing facilities.
The secret was that the Cadets spent ALL of the time in a hands on situation; from getting machines out to the launch point until the final flights back to the hangar.
Although the actual 'flying time' could be as little as 1 hour to solo (continuous course) the Cadets were observing all of the normal activity all of the time for the entire day and actually doing most of the jobs required to keep the system moving.
They would see the machines from launch to landing plus the cable breaks and this would have been a very useful 'aid' to understanding what was required.
Therefore the experience of 90% of the day on the actual airfield more than made up from comprehensive briefings and classroom work.
I always felt that a small pre course booklet would have been useful but of course as this was predominately a w-end operation no one was geared up for producing that, and you did not miss what you had never had.
Had the 'system' realised that hundreds of youths were going off on their own in machines with so little 'time' no doubt it would have been queried from the top.
That this was done with such a low accident record speaks volumes for the validity of it all and why it was such a WORLD CLASS operation for its time.
WE should also remember that Cadets were not 'streamed' for this, and merely needed their parents consent, thereby proving the KISS principle.
We will never get back to this level of simplicity nowadays, but we can learn from the past and a future 'system' could be kindled from it.
The basic lessons gleaned from the open cockpit machines were the best introduction that you can have for future aviation, and were far better than 'simulators' which do really work in the gliding world.
The secret was that the Cadets spent ALL of the time in a hands on situation; from getting machines out to the launch point until the final flights back to the hangar.
Although the actual 'flying time' could be as little as 1 hour to solo (continuous course) the Cadets were observing all of the normal activity all of the time for the entire day and actually doing most of the jobs required to keep the system moving.
They would see the machines from launch to landing plus the cable breaks and this would have been a very useful 'aid' to understanding what was required.
Therefore the experience of 90% of the day on the actual airfield more than made up from comprehensive briefings and classroom work.
I always felt that a small pre course booklet would have been useful but of course as this was predominately a w-end operation no one was geared up for producing that, and you did not miss what you had never had.
Had the 'system' realised that hundreds of youths were going off on their own in machines with so little 'time' no doubt it would have been queried from the top.
That this was done with such a low accident record speaks volumes for the validity of it all and why it was such a WORLD CLASS operation for its time.
WE should also remember that Cadets were not 'streamed' for this, and merely needed their parents consent, thereby proving the KISS principle.
We will never get back to this level of simplicity nowadays, but we can learn from the past and a future 'system' could be kindled from it.
The basic lessons gleaned from the open cockpit machines were the best introduction that you can have for future aviation, and were far better than 'simulators' which do really work in the gliding world.
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I suggest that the main thing a cadet got out of the flying he did in the ATC was a massive boost to his confidence. Flying solo is a character forming experience no matter what your educational standard might have been. I was very confidant young engineer - I had an honours degree in engineering, and had been trained by Rolls-Royce, but the experience of that first solo (and the 2200 others that followed it) did more for my self confidence than anything that had gone before. The potential outcome of not getting that first solo right was uppermost in my mind. That was why I wrote in an earlier post that I thought anyone who had taken part in an activity which might result in death becomes a different sort of person.
What you actually fly seems to me to be quite irrelevant. The 'kick' you would get from a solo in an ASK21 is no different to the one you and I got from a T31. Also no matter how good you might become at flying a modern glider, the RAF will assume quite rightly that you may well have the capability to fly an aeroplane, but you will still need to go through the same training programme as a chap who has had no hands on flying experience.
Which brings me full circle to saying that I think the ATC would have done far better by buying K13's or something similar - KISS. Just my view. A modern plastic glider flies much the same as a T31, or a Tutor, or even a K13, it just does it a bit longer and a lot more expensively.
What you actually fly seems to me to be quite irrelevant. The 'kick' you would get from a solo in an ASK21 is no different to the one you and I got from a T31. Also no matter how good you might become at flying a modern glider, the RAF will assume quite rightly that you may well have the capability to fly an aeroplane, but you will still need to go through the same training programme as a chap who has had no hands on flying experience.
Which brings me full circle to saying that I think the ATC would have done far better by buying K13's or something similar - KISS. Just my view. A modern plastic glider flies much the same as a T31, or a Tutor, or even a K13, it just does it a bit longer and a lot more expensively.
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<snip>
Which brings me full circle to saying that I think the ATC would have done far better by buying K13's or something similar - KISS. Just my view. A modern plastic glider flies much the same as a T31, or a Tutor, or even a K13, it just does it a bit longer and a lot more expensively.
Which brings me full circle to saying that I think the ATC would have done far better by buying K13's or something similar - KISS. Just my view. A modern plastic glider flies much the same as a T31, or a Tutor, or even a K13, it just does it a bit longer and a lot more expensively.
The failures from top to bottom (only the cadets are guilt-free) that have grounded the Vikings would just have surely grounded the fleet whatever glider type they were. Like all gliders, K13s are only airworthy if all the paperwork is in order.
Additionally Schleicher might not have wanted to produce what would amount to 1/7 of the total K13 fleet for one buyer in a very short period of time. Doing that doesn't seem to have done Grob any good. Schleicher have full order books and no need to kow-tow to a customer who wants it all yesterday, with modifications.
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https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...29037/1025.pdf
"A FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP, CULTURE AND PRIORITIES"
Fortunately a glider is a very simple airframe, unlike a Nimrod, but I think the headline of the Haddon-Cave report applies equally well to the mess the ATC got into.
What I wonder is if the systemic failures have been fixed, or will the paperwork for the recovered gliders simply descend into the same guddle that has grounded the existing fleet - assuming it's not lost?
"A FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP, CULTURE AND PRIORITIES"
Fortunately a glider is a very simple airframe, unlike a Nimrod, but I think the headline of the Haddon-Cave report applies equally well to the mess the ATC got into.
What I wonder is if the systemic failures have been fixed, or will the paperwork for the recovered gliders simply descend into the same guddle that has grounded the existing fleet - assuming it's not lost?
Pobjoy and Olympia
Your last posts are both good descriptions of some of the best points about cadet gliding in the open cockpit era! The important element was that it was an immersive process. The cadet doing the course was totally involved...RAF bus at 7am, until RAF bus home at the end of the day. TBH, I get the impression that a cadet today could do the whole thing on their computer...OH! Apparently they do!
OAP
Your last posts are both good descriptions of some of the best points about cadet gliding in the open cockpit era! The important element was that it was an immersive process. The cadet doing the course was totally involved...RAF bus at 7am, until RAF bus home at the end of the day. TBH, I get the impression that a cadet today could do the whole thing on their computer...OH! Apparently they do!
OAP
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Pobjoy and Olympia
Your last posts are both good descriptions of some of the best points about cadet gliding in the open cockpit era! The important element was that it was an immersive process. The cadet doing the course was totally involved...RAF bus at 7am, until RAF bus home at the end of the day. TBH, I get the impression that a cadet today could do the whole thing on their computer...OH! Apparently they do!
OAP
Your last posts are both good descriptions of some of the best points about cadet gliding in the open cockpit era! The important element was that it was an immersive process. The cadet doing the course was totally involved...RAF bus at 7am, until RAF bus home at the end of the day. TBH, I get the impression that a cadet today could do the whole thing on their computer...OH! Apparently they do!
OAP
Gliders have to be got out and taken to the launch point, the log has to be kept, gliders that have landed have to be retrieved, the winch has to be driven (but only after suitable training), cables pulled out and a great deal can be learnt by observation including seeing DIs - the introduction to airworthiness paperwork.
Apart from travel to/from the gliding school, the instruction to solo standard cost the cadet or their parents NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO!(In fact when I started I'm sure you could claim travel expenses). My father worked 6 days a week so saturdays I would hitch hike(wasn't dangerous in those days)but sundays my father would take me.
No BGA club would be able to offer this on such a massive scale; I started learning at 613 just after my 16th birthday when I was still at school before I even took my 'O' levels and there's no way my parents could have afforded to pay for it.
The same would hold true today whether a cadet's parents are rolling in it or on benefits, the 'experience' would be available to ALL cadets on equal terms.
Last edited by chevvron; 30th Dec 2017 at 02:18.
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I apologise for the questions but does anyone know know how many of the Air Cadets join up these days (not historically)..................
Is it a cost effective method of recruitment for the modern generation?
Is it a cost effective method of recruitment for the modern generation?
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Harry
Recruiting is not the primary aim of all the cadet forces, citizenship is buzz word but character development and keeping kids out of trouble makes the cadet forces very good value for money.
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But there is one very major difference.
Apart from travel to/from the gliding school, the instruction to solo standard cost the cadet or their parents NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO!(In fact when I started I'm sure you could claim travel expenses). My father worked 6 days a week so saturdays I would hitch hike(wasn't dangerous in those days)but sundays my father would take me.
No BGA club would be able to offer this on such a massive scale; I started learning at 613 just after my 16th birthday when I was still at school before I even took my 'O' levels and there's no way my parents could have afforded to pay for it.
The same would hold true today whether a cadet's parents are rolling in it or on benefits, the 'experience' would be available to ALL cadets on equal terms.
Apart from travel to/from the gliding school, the instruction to solo standard cost the cadet or their parents NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO!(In fact when I started I'm sure you could claim travel expenses). My father worked 6 days a week so saturdays I would hitch hike(wasn't dangerous in those days)but sundays my father would take me.
No BGA club would be able to offer this on such a massive scale; I started learning at 613 just after my 16th birthday when I was still at school before I even took my 'O' levels and there's no way my parents could have afforded to pay for it.
The same would hold true today whether a cadet's parents are rolling in it or on benefits, the 'experience' would be available to ALL cadets on equal terms.
What is the demographic profile of ATC cadets in terms of how well off their parents are?
Are you over-estimating the cost of gliding for under 18s at the average BGA club? Where I fly membership is £90pa and a winch launch plus up to 30 minutes is £8.
How much pocket money do children get these days? I don't think it's unreasonable for a child to pay at least some of the cost of their flying from their pocket money.
Finally have you seen how many schemes are available to help with the cost of flying for under 18s?
Olympia 463,
I thought the sentiments expressed in your post were a very good description of the benefits I gained from gliding in the 1980s, albeit at a BGA club rather than in the RAF GSA.
Your nom de plume also brought back some happy memories of the first glider I owned a share in, EoN Olympia 463, BGA number 1171. I flew it for about 5 years before we upgraded to the ultimate wooden glider, an SHK 1. The Olympia was sold on to some friends of ours and eventually grounded after the spar failure accident in the late 1990s.
The pictures below were taken at its home base in Pocklington and in a stubble field at Fulford near York where I landed after a flight from Sutton Bank in the Northern Regional Championship in 1984.
Olympia 463 1.JPG
Olympia 463 2.JPG
Happy days
Walbut
I thought the sentiments expressed in your post were a very good description of the benefits I gained from gliding in the 1980s, albeit at a BGA club rather than in the RAF GSA.
Your nom de plume also brought back some happy memories of the first glider I owned a share in, EoN Olympia 463, BGA number 1171. I flew it for about 5 years before we upgraded to the ultimate wooden glider, an SHK 1. The Olympia was sold on to some friends of ours and eventually grounded after the spar failure accident in the late 1990s.
The pictures below were taken at its home base in Pocklington and in a stubble field at Fulford near York where I landed after a flight from Sutton Bank in the Northern Regional Championship in 1984.
Olympia 463 1.JPG
Olympia 463 2.JPG
Happy days
Walbut
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A and C
Have you read the Northampton report? (https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/c...ach-potential/)
cats_five
The uniform is free... but subscriptions aren't and vary from unit to unit. Not involved directly with the ATC myself but I'd be amazed if there weren't hardship schemes for cadets who really can't afford the subs.
Have you read the Northampton report? (https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/c...ach-potential/)
cats_five
The uniform is free... but subscriptions aren't and vary from unit to unit. Not involved directly with the ATC myself but I'd be amazed if there weren't hardship schemes for cadets who really can't afford the subs.
tmm
You are correct. There is a scheme (certainly on the Squadron I am with) regarding subs. and sometimes many other activities, which help out cadets whose parent(s) have problems with finances.
I think back to the early '50's when I was a cadet- but that was a different era!! However, it sent me gliding and on a Flying Scholarship (to PPL!) and very much else which stood me in good stead in the RAF and two other Air Forces!
I will always be grateful!
Bill.
You are correct. There is a scheme (certainly on the Squadron I am with) regarding subs. and sometimes many other activities, which help out cadets whose parent(s) have problems with finances.
I think back to the early '50's when I was a cadet- but that was a different era!! However, it sent me gliding and on a Flying Scholarship (to PPL!) and very much else which stood me in good stead in the RAF and two other Air Forces!
I will always be grateful!
Bill.
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I suspect that studies of children involved an all sorts of activities - playing in an orchestra for example - would show improved life outcomes.
Doesn't alter the fact that there must have been a systemic failure at all levels over a period of time to ground all the gliders, and it's nothing to do with the type of glider. It would have happened if they were flying k13s, or even primaries.
Doesn't alter the fact that there must have been a systemic failure at all levels over a period of time to ground all the gliders, and it's nothing to do with the type of glider. It would have happened if they were flying k13s, or even primaries.
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Probably no SO came up that route so it's never been any priority - in fact probably seen as a waste of time, space, money and people. Publically saying so would be embarrassing but just ignoring things has much the same effect...............
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I mentioned being in an orchestra, thinking of the Big Noise programs run by Sistema Scotland.
Sistema Scotland is a charity on a mission