Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 17th Oct 2016, 10:43
  #2941 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,030
Keep them on the civil register, 70k a pop, get the instructors to become SLMG instructor qualified and Robert is your Dad's brother. As for money, for every 3 'part task trainesr' we could have one of these motor gliders, plus the money spent on that gin palace at Syerston could buy a whole fleet!

At present all of the eggs are in one basket with the Viking option. The amount of money being spent on these ageing aircraft is COLLOSAL and comes at significant risk that no-where near the 70-odd will be recovered to airworthy. Buying a fleet of ~30 Rotax Falkes for 2M derisks the chance of failure and being no further forward this time next year in 2017 (which I suspect is 50/50 likely). This could see a return to Swansea, Newtonards, Kinloss Abingdon and Halton - all areas screaming out for Air Cadet flying with large numbers of Cadets to get flying that have a potential mahoosive journey to their nearest on current plans. The AEF expansion is a joke as we simply don't have the pilots as we expand Typhoon and P-8 capabilities. Also, Babcock won't be giving the flying time away for free - so channel the cash into buying Rotax Falkes. The serviceability of the Tutor is a nightmare - look at your average UAS/AEF and it has 6-7 on its books; how many would you expect to see flyable at a weekend - 4 if you are lucky! If these were civvy reg Grob 115Es at a flying club being looked after by a Part M, then I would expect to see 5-6 ready to fly. Applying MAA regs to small light aircraft (on the civvy register!) and gliders is killing us in money, time and availability.

Why has the Air Force buried its head in the sand? We need airminded people for our 5th Generation Air Force that we are trying to build - without a way to get more youngsters flying we just won't have the right people in future. It's going to be hard going to build the extra Typhoon and P-8 sqns with the ever dwindling aircrew cadre we have on the books.


Last edited by Lima Juliet; 17th Oct 2016 at 10:54.
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 12:11
  #2942 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Salisbury
Posts: 21
Apparently there is a dasor out concerning a Viking which has been returned to syerston with significant faults that should have been picked up during he repair inspection process. Oh dear!
Thorr is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 17:29
  #2943 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ulster
Age: 60
Posts: 204
Kirknewton, at least one of mine flown

RUCAWO is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 19:02
  #2944 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Old Hampshire
Age: 65
Posts: 593
Far too little, far too late and if anyone at Syerston or Cranwell is congratulating themselves they should be ashamed.
VX275 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 19:23
  #2945 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 75' from the runway edge and 150' from the threshold
Age: 71
Posts: 167
Glider recovery program.

Just couple of gems needed please.

What is the current level of "Recovered" aircraft?
What was wrong with the recovered aircraft which had to be returned to the "repair" facility?
What is a DAROS?
I presume that the sale of G115s to Finland doesn't compromise the AEF "what would like to do today smith? aeros, or look at your house from the air? plan

RUCAWO, what was the timings in getting your cadets from Regent House (500 yards from 664VGS, to Kirknewton, flying the cadets and returning them to Newtownards. How many flights did they get over the week-end, and how much of the syllabus was covered? Any other meaningful information would, I'm sure, be welcomed by the PPruners on this thread.

Cracking 664 farewell dinner and very well done by Antrim branch, Royal British Legion on our behalf.

ACW342 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 19:30
  #2946 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ulster
Age: 60
Posts: 204
342 they flew out to Edinburgh yesterday afternoon coming back tomorrow, as for what was done I will need to talk to Scotty when he gets back, and yes it was a cracking dinner
RUCAWO is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 19:39
  #2947 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,831
Far too little, far too late.....
....... but not too little for the very happy face of a content cadet.

Perhaps the picture should be sent to 2 FTS with a "How many of these do you expect to achieve each year?"
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2016, 12:14
  #2948 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Old Hampshire
Age: 65
Posts: 593
The grin would be bigger and last longer if it had been a solo, but they'll be fewer of those in the new scheme.......fewer than those achievable year on year by just one of the disbanded VGS.
VX275 is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2016, 18:36
  #2949 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The sky mainly
Posts: 304
From the Air Cadet Facebook page;

The Air Cadet Glider Recovery Programme hit its latest milestone by returning Grob Vigilants to 645 Volunteer Gliding Squadron.
The team at 645VGS will now focus on getting all the instructors current again and ensuring the unit is operating to a required standard under the supervision and guidance of 2FTS.
Once this is complete 645 VGS will be handed over to its own executive team ready to fly cadets again in the near future where they are looking forward to welcoming cadets.

With one comment made;

I'm confused...the last I'd heard all Vigilant motor gliders (except the handful that had already been returned) were being scrapped, and motor gliders altogether were on the way out. Has something changed?

Somebody who is a bit more IT savvy might be able to post the whole link.
Sky Sports is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2016, 18:41
  #2950 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 657
Try this.
hoodie is online now  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 11:32
  #2951 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Behind you...
Posts: 63
Got an update yesterday on how the plan to augment the AEFs is hitting the skids in a number of different ways. Figured it was going to be bad before the brief, but it's considerably worse than I feared.
Cat Funt is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 11:37
  #2952 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,030
Come on Cat, spill the beans...you can't leave a rumour untold on a rumour network!
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 10:17
  #2953 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Somewhere in England
Posts: 173
Del boy does a deal ..................

Vigilant fleet - the deal is like this chaps.............all 65 will be returned to Grob, and 15 will be re-furbished to the original Vigilant specification, whilst the other 50 will be stripped and convexed to Mk II standard ( i.e., what we WERE going to have under original plans before the cock up ) incl Glass cockpit, New donk etc., and then sold by Grob to the Swedish Air Force as virtually brand new aircraft. Our 15 will be given a quick gel coat polish, a couple of re-furbished seats, some new spark plugs and at no cost to the RAF - brilliant deal - really.

Trotter could not have done a better deal ! Well done Rodney !

And ...........when we have got them, we will operate them until engine life expired, expected life three years, then get rid and be totally reliant on conventional gliders, by which time we may have a couple of dozen back in service if they get a wriggle on !

By then defence estates will have closed some of the nominated VGS Viking sites where we have invested lots of taxpayer cash into residential Cadet accommodation needed because Cadets would have to travel large distances.

And, under the new regime no limited Eng authority for DI and OOPS checks by VGS staff - as we were too good at that, we never missed a thing - it will now be done by .................An ENGINEER ! Completely overlooking the fact that the big Eng problem was not at VGS level, it was at Command level !!!

Cadet Wings come with 10 Corn flake packet tops or a couple of Part Task Trainer rides, and as a final nail in the coffin, the VRT Queens Commission will be discontinued in favour of a lower grade plastic version. I think we definitely had the best years !
EnigmAviation is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 12:16
  #2954 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Uranus
Posts: 330

Would it not have been better to pay the difference per airframe and get the 15 upgraded to MK2 spec at the same time?
Shaft109 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 13:01
  #2955 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,037
Surely this has got to be a p1ss take..................

Arclite01 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 14:35
  #2956 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Somewhere in England
Posts: 173
Piss take ????

No Arclite, absolutely not ! Even though 15 will come back, they will only fly until circa 2019 and that's it. The fleet will be conventional Gliders only thereafter, too bloody dangerous having Cadets taught to go solo with an engine ! and besides they have to work all day at a conventional Viking VGS to earn their short launches whereas at a Vigilant equipped VGS huge productivity results from a small team.
EnigmAviation is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 18:03
  #2957 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Behind you...
Posts: 63
Just Curious, Enigma- was the Sweden bit pukka gen? Everything else is pretty much consonant with what I've heard. Just heard nothing about disposal the other airframes that aren't being kept.
Cat Funt is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2016, 00:06
  #2958 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,030
Do you mean Finland? They are buying some of our Grob Tutors?
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2016, 00:34
  #2959 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 793
This saga just keeps getting more and more unbelievable. Assuming the info here is accurate, and I don't doubt it, the situation could be summarised as follows:

1. The RAF purchases 65 Grob Vigilants
2. It fails to keep them airworthy, but doesn't actually know it's failed.
3. It then finds out it's failed, and grounds the fleet (sorry, 'pauses' flying)
4. It then spends two years trying to sort them out.
5. It then decides to hand over all 65 aircraft to Grob, who will bring 15 of the aircraft to an airworthy condition. However, these 15 are only sustainable for another 36 months. Then they will be withdrawn from service.
6. The other 50 will be handed over to Grob free of charge. They will be made airworthy and sustainable, then sold. Grob will then have had the unusual privilege of selling 50 of their products twice over.

I would have LOVED to have had a go at the service paper that came up with this sorry excuse for a plan. I'd have loved to had the chance to get the people behind this up in front of a proper engineering investigation to pin down who failed to do what and when. I'd have loved to be able to leak this whole saga to someone who could do the maths and work out just how much the taxpayer has ended up paying out.

Sadly, none of that is likely to happen, and that's a damn shame. I'd sincerely hope that some of the people involved in this huge waste of money have the chance, at some time in the future, to help bring those responsible to book.

Best Regards as ever to all those responsibly managing public funds

Engines is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2016, 10:12
  #2960 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: France
Age: 76
Posts: 6,365
Reminds me of youngest son - rang me and asked if I would like to buy his car off him - asked him why I would want to pay for it twice. He had "forgotten" we had bought it in the first place
Wander00 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.