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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 26th Sep 2016, 14:24
  #2881 (permalink)  
 
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Posts #2867, #2868 and #2869 have it correct.

In the past the RAF had no interest is the VGS, no money was spent there and very little oversight of the operation was undertaken by the RAF. People posted into ACCGS and CFS Exam Wing (Gliders) saw it as a sidelining of ambition or a complete dead end from a career perspective. The bulk of the work was done by the ACCGS staff (Civil Servants in Uniform) and things motored on reasonably well.

End of Cold War, much reduced budget and much reduced career opportunities meant people had to look elsewhere to fulfill their ambitions and found a fertile breeding ground in the Cadet organization(s).

Spend some cash and ask for some Management oversight as part of the deal, rubbish the current setup, suggest it needs review and replacement - align it with the 'proper' RAF setup................. hey presto here we are..........

Arc
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 14:56
  #2882 (permalink)  
 
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A01:-
In the past the RAF had no interest is the VGS
No doubt, but the MOD as UK Military Air Regulator was mandated to take a very close interest in the airworthiness of VGS aircraft. That it failed to do so is clear, why it failed to do so is the scandal that now must be exposed. Aviation doesn't do politics, it kills given half a chance. When you are dealing with other mothers' kids that's a clear no go.

As with any air accident, there are often many holes in many slices of the Swiss Cheese to line up. The UK Military Airworthiness slice is now more hole than it is cheese!

If this was only about the ACO glider "pause", it could be turned around in a thrice. Unfortunately it is about far more than that, though the MOD would much prefer those affected to think along parochial lines. That's how they dealt with all the other fleets affected by lack of airworthiness (usually at the cost of fatal air accidents). They even have a term for it, "stove piping"!
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 15:00
  #2883 (permalink)  
 
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Cadet Training via service clubs

Corp Clott, as an ex-RAF Flying Club secretary, I couldn't imagine anything worse than 'Get 2FTS to administer Air Cadet flying through these clubs'. Not only would he have the same negative impact on the clubs that he has had on the VGS but surely you have missed the point of this whole exercise - NO CIVILIANS FLYING CADETS. As that has been achieved, why would 'they' change a great result and some well earned prestige.
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 15:25
  #2884 (permalink)  
 
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ACW VGL

Aren't there still CI's on the VGS at Topcliffe then ??

Arc
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 18:43
  #2885 (permalink)  
 
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>Corp Clott, as an ex-RAF Flying Club secretary, I couldn't imagine anything worse than 'Get 2FTS to administer Air Cadet flying through these clubs'.<

And as a current RAFFC instructor and ex-VGS A2* I couldn't agree more. For goodness' sake don't let 2FTS anywhere near the RAFFC organisation.
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Old 26th Sep 2016, 22:47
  #2886 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arclite01 View Post
ACW VGL

Aren't there still CI's on the VGS at Topcliffe then ??

Arc
The ambition is to uniform everyone and remove staff cadets.

Methinks this has something to do with a lack of understanding of the volunteer, their motivation and that a solution is to uniform everyone so you can command them.

They can still tell you to "do one".

The carrot is that everyone will get (allegedly) unlimited "Paid Training Days" - which can only be cheaper when there are so few left to pay...
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 07:50
  #2887 (permalink)  
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Remove Staff Cadets?


Is that a 'feeling' or a known objective/?


I had heard of the all uniform wish but nothing about removing Staff Cadets.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 07:58
  #2888 (permalink)  
 
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Achievement of the Aim

I don't think the changes are anything to do with ordering people about or training-day pay, rather post Haddon-Cave perceptions. The loss of three cadets in two AEF accidents was a watershed, generating a corporate fear that any repeat would cause the service to lose its aviation authority. I have seen other 'Write a service paper about X. I don't care what you write but the conclusion is this...' moments and this all smacks of that. The desired end state is being rolled out - fewer schools, with more visible supervision, all-uniformed staff, far fewer opportunities for cadets to fly and very rarely solo. I recently had a conversation with one of the safety engineer consultants that reviewed the safety management processes at the DT. He recollected Vigilant door opening as a prime example of safety processes not being enacted. Am I imagining signals from Syerston the VGS promulgating an additional captain's check of the trainee's door, to be reminded at every morning brief, pending a revision the FRCs, which were subsequently amended as expected.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 09:48
  #2889 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of multiple incoming, I fear that the wood and the trees are being confused and not only by 2FTS. The sad Grob accidents were wholly outwith Air Cadet Gliding. There are certainly airworthiness and servicing issues that needed to be addressed. I don't know how many cadets have been flown/flown themselves over how many hours, and what the actual number of accidents has been, but I suspect the safety record would be the envy of many organisations. The cavalier treatment of loyal volunteer gliding instructors, and now it seem Staff Cadets, IMHO is to be deplored. We can never get back to the halcyon days, but lets get cadets back I the air. If nothing else it represents the nation putting resources into developing and maintaining air-mindedness in the young, fostering a sense of wonder and adventure - oh yes and motherhood and apple pie. Don't know where, or when, it will all end but hope to heck something good comes out at the far end
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 10:56
  #2890 (permalink)  
 
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I think it wise to remember that the grounding has been forced by precisely the same systemic failures that led to the avoidable deaths of scores, in Chinook, Nimrod, Hercules and other accidents discussed here. 95% of the recommendations in the various BoI/SI reports can be summarised as "implement mandated policy". Who is responsible for ensuring these recommendations are implemented? Do you think they'd done a good job? I don't.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 14:18
  #2891 (permalink)  
 
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PS

Gliding in its widest sense runs on volunteers, as it does here in France. Instructors and others give their time freely. It therefore seems logical that many years ago Air Cadet Gliding was similarly based on volunteers, as is the rest of the Air Cadet movement. Staff cadets provide the grass roots leadership for cadets attending, and that is to their huge personal benefit and development as well. This gives a valuable example to cadets and their parents, that voluntary service is valuable in its own right.

To move to a fully paid instructor system and also to abolish Staff Cadets would be to abandon many of the strengths of the former system, to no great advantage. the next cry will be that paid staff are unaffordable, and for the whole system to die. cadets will leave the Air Cadet Movement for civilian gliding clubs, which means they will fly, but lose all the other benefits of a uniformed, disciplined youth organisation. Hope the plug hole is big enough for the babies as well as the bathwater. Rant mode "off".
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 16:30
  #2892 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 622 View Post
Remove Staff Cadets?


Is that a 'feeling' or a known objective/?


I had heard of the all uniform wish but nothing about removing Staff Cadets.
It came straight from the horse's mouth; they will exist no more. There was also other tosh regarding 'aircrew NCOs' and other minutiae that, I'm sure, took significant sums of taxpayers money to produce.

Last edited by Whizz Bang; 27th Sep 2016 at 16:40. Reason: expansion on point
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 16:47
  #2893 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACW VGL View Post
I don't think the changes are anything to do with ordering people about or training-day pay, rather post Haddon-Cave perceptions. The loss of three cadets in two AEF accidents was a watershed, generating a corporate fear that any repeat would cause the service to lose its aviation authority. I have seen other 'Write a service paper about X. I don't care what you write but the conclusion is this...' moments and this all smacks of that. The desired end state is being rolled out - fewer schools, with more visible supervision, all-uniformed staff, far fewer opportunities for cadets to fly and very rarely solo. I recently had a conversation with one of the safety engineer consultants that reviewed the safety management processes at the DT. He recollected Vigilant door opening as a prime example of safety processes not being enacted. Am I imagining signals from Syerston the VGS promulgating an additional captain's check of the trainee's door, to be reminded at every morning brief, pending a revision the FRCs, which were subsequently amended as expected.
My conclusion comes from my perception of the main personality involved; the carrot to dangle as an incentive and the stick to enforce his will.

I've not seen any evidence of his comprehension of the volunteer, their motivation nor any of the excellent points made above regarding the wider impact of, what was, an exceptionally good value for money system.

There was certainly more competent supervision at grass roots level by the 'amateurs' who also had full time jobs. Visible doesn't equal effective.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 17:28
  #2894 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Whizz Bang View Post
It came straight from the horse's mouth; they will exist no more. There was also other tosh regarding 'aircrew NCOs' and other minutiae that, I'm sure, took significant sums of taxpayers money to produce.
That's not exactly what was said though was it. There is only an affect on over 18s. FSC 16-18 will remain.

There was always the option to become staff on a VGS at 18 that just becomes less optional now.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 19:06
  #2895 (permalink)  
 
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... lose all the other benefits of a uniformed, disciplined youth organisation.
They will however benefit from the self-discipline required to learn to fly a glider and go solo, along with having to help others to do so. It's true they won't learn to march, they won't wear a uniform, but they will almost certainly go solo in however many flights it takes and can continue flying to progress as far as they want to, within their capabilities. There are some terrifyingly brilliant young (under 20) glider pilots.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 21:44
  #2896 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tingger View Post
That's not exactly what was said though was it. There is only an affect on over 18s. FSC 16-18 will remain.

There was always the option to become staff on a VGS at 18 that just becomes less optional now.
It's what I was told. There will be no staff cadets. Period.

At 18, should you wish to join a Volunteer Grounded Squadron, you will cease to be a cadet. You shall not join before 18 as a member of staff; cadet or otherwise.

Of course there is no written confirmation of this and I expect the party line has flip-flopped a few times as there is precious little else to do at EGXY.
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Old 27th Sep 2016, 22:27
  #2897 (permalink)  
 
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The future progressive Training package document that's been available since April shows that gold Wing courses are "Reserved for cadets wishing to pursue Flight Staff Cadets (FSC) service"

Cadets don't "join" a VGS as before they remain "owned" by their normal squadron and don't show up against the establishment which is limited but they are still FSCs. There may occasionally in the future be a point where a VGS establishment is full when an FSC reaches 18, with no post to go to in adult service with the VGS that there maybe a tough call on manning for the OC.
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Old 28th Sep 2016, 05:47
  #2898 (permalink)  
 
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Can someone please tell me what the V means in VGS or indeed RAFVR(T)?

Yep, thought as much.
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Old 28th Sep 2016, 07:54
  #2899 (permalink)  
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Ref the above...it mainly means you can say goodbye at any time you like


..and I am sure this whole sorry fiasco has led to a few of those!
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Old 28th Sep 2016, 08:53
  #2900 (permalink)  
 
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My son is a competent, solo, 15 year old glider pilot. He is also an Air Cadet.

What opportunities now exist for him to further his gliding within the organisation?
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