LONG RANGE SAR
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Daysleeper,
As i recall, not a lot of space down in the Nav compartment of an IL 76; but I guess the Chinesse version won't have all the empty Vodka bottles rolling around on the floor!
As i recall, not a lot of space down in the Nav compartment of an IL 76; but I guess the Chinesse version won't have all the empty Vodka bottles rolling around on the floor!
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Captain Radar,
There are numerous factual errors in your last post and your "I bets" are wrong.
The P8 operates perfectly well at visual search heights.
The observer windows in the P-8 are substantially larger than the beam windows in the MR2 and offer an excellent view, especially rearward where the wing sweep involves less of the field of view being obscured.
Although the MR2 had more windows, the reality in terms of SAR visual search was that most were no more than a token gesture. The Galley offered an excellent view of the top surface of the port wing, a similar scenario with recorder and ESM. The reality of the "eyes-in/out" calls was it was all about the beams and AEO- positions on the fuselage of the P-8 that have very large observer windows. I just wish Boeing would install them on all their passenger aircraft.
In addition please explain how "the kit" is not optimised to operate at visual search heights; this is precisely what the USN are doing with the aircraft operationally right now, albeit for a different task.
There are numerous factual errors in your last post and your "I bets" are wrong.
The P8 operates perfectly well at visual search heights.
The observer windows in the P-8 are substantially larger than the beam windows in the MR2 and offer an excellent view, especially rearward where the wing sweep involves less of the field of view being obscured.
Although the MR2 had more windows, the reality in terms of SAR visual search was that most were no more than a token gesture. The Galley offered an excellent view of the top surface of the port wing, a similar scenario with recorder and ESM. The reality of the "eyes-in/out" calls was it was all about the beams and AEO- positions on the fuselage of the P-8 that have very large observer windows. I just wish Boeing would install them on all their passenger aircraft.
In addition please explain how "the kit" is not optimised to operate at visual search heights; this is precisely what the USN are doing with the aircraft operationally right now, albeit for a different task.
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Captain radar,
Apology accepted, however, I simply can't withdraw the "utter pish" sentiment. As Randomblah eloquently says above, the aircraft is perfectly set up for a visual search at lower levels.
Is time to dispel the myths re P-8 and it's ability to carry out the mission or not at low level.
Apology accepted, however, I simply can't withdraw the "utter pish" sentiment. As Randomblah eloquently says above, the aircraft is perfectly set up for a visual search at lower levels.
Is time to dispel the myths re P-8 and it's ability to carry out the mission or not at low level.
Last edited by betty swallox; 23rd Mar 2014 at 10:20.
VX275,
I have come to this thread rather late so apologies to all for a backtrack.
I am confused by the statement that the C130K tanker did not have clearance for the carriage of smoke floats and marine markers. Or have I misunderstood ?
We certainly carried them 'down south'. Given that these items were only prepped once the para doors were open the hazard was minimised.
Besides a caring 'system' had thoughtfully provided us with an extra (SMALL) BCF fire extinguisher on the aft face of each internal tank.
As for the ASRA and the wooden crates, we had more than one disintegrate in situ and the bits follow the linked containers out of the port para door !
I have come to this thread rather late so apologies to all for a backtrack.
I am confused by the statement that the C130K tanker did not have clearance for the carriage of smoke floats and marine markers. Or have I misunderstood ?
We certainly carried them 'down south'. Given that these items were only prepped once the para doors were open the hazard was minimised.
Besides a caring 'system' had thoughtfully provided us with an extra (SMALL) BCF fire extinguisher on the aft face of each internal tank.
As for the ASRA and the wooden crates, we had more than one disintegrate in situ and the bits follow the linked containers out of the port para door !
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And on their first mission the Chinese spot several large items of debris which neither the RAAF, RNZAF or USN have seen in several days of intense searching.
I must be getting cynical in my old age.
I must be getting cynical in my old age.
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Martin the Martian.
Completely unfair. You've obviously never been on a SAR mission as you clearly have no idea of the process involved in searching a large area of ocean.
Well done you.
Completely unfair. You've obviously never been on a SAR mission as you clearly have no idea of the process involved in searching a large area of ocean.
Well done you.
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You're right. No I haven't, and no I don't understand all the complexities. If it is a new area that has not yet been searched, fair enough.
I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.
That's all. I'm not saying that the report was false or that the 'objects' were chucked out the back of the Il-76 (though I do wonder why PLANAF MPAs were not deployed instead. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be very happy to know why).
So my apologies for coming over all suspicious and cynical. Put it down to Monday morning.
I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.
That's all. I'm not saying that the report was false or that the 'objects' were chucked out the back of the Il-76 (though I do wonder why PLANAF MPAs were not deployed instead. If anyone can enlighten me I'd be very happy to know why).
So my apologies for coming over all suspicious and cynical. Put it down to Monday morning.
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Martin
Re "I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.
Well the program didn't do much research then.
1. The Australian military and Chinese mil have worked together before,
on exercises to do with disaster relief and humanitarian assistance for this exact purpose. An Aussie warship spent 5 days in a Chinese port on an official visit - 2012/13. It also conducted movement exercises with Chinese warships which is not something that normally occurs. The Aust Govt has invited 3 Chinese warships to visit Australia, I think this year.
2. Read the following article. Gives some insight into the background of why maybe China wants to be seen to be doing more because it cocked up by not doing anything when the Typhoon hit the Philippines.
3. The current Aust govt was quick to invite the Chinese ("And Prime Minister Tony Abbott was shrewd to have invited China to send its planes and ships to join the effort with the US, New Zealand, Britain, France and Japan") as they knew they wanted "in" and to be "seen" and to not to do so would have been awkward, not that Aus would have said no. After all, the chinese ship was already in port in Perth, right by the search zone !!!
4. If the US is such a big player, every other country has more assets here than the US !!!
5. Both Chinese aircraft had an Aussie pilot on board - at the request of the RAAF !!! so I doubt any funny business went on !
Read more here.
Self-interest the only principle guiding China
Re "I heard an article on the Today programme this morning which discussed the way that China has effectively been sidelined in a region in which it is usually the biggest fish in the pond by the capabilities of Australia, New Zealand, the USA et al and those countries willingness to work together and their previous experience in doing so. The article stated that the USA is again being looked upon as a big player in the region and that a competitive edge is being developed in Beijing in the search for answers. That the Chinese crew spotted wreckage on their first sortie is quite a coincidence.
Well the program didn't do much research then.
1. The Australian military and Chinese mil have worked together before,
on exercises to do with disaster relief and humanitarian assistance for this exact purpose. An Aussie warship spent 5 days in a Chinese port on an official visit - 2012/13. It also conducted movement exercises with Chinese warships which is not something that normally occurs. The Aust Govt has invited 3 Chinese warships to visit Australia, I think this year.
2. Read the following article. Gives some insight into the background of why maybe China wants to be seen to be doing more because it cocked up by not doing anything when the Typhoon hit the Philippines.
3. The current Aust govt was quick to invite the Chinese ("And Prime Minister Tony Abbott was shrewd to have invited China to send its planes and ships to join the effort with the US, New Zealand, Britain, France and Japan") as they knew they wanted "in" and to be "seen" and to not to do so would have been awkward, not that Aus would have said no. After all, the chinese ship was already in port in Perth, right by the search zone !!!
4. If the US is such a big player, every other country has more assets here than the US !!!
5. Both Chinese aircraft had an Aussie pilot on board - at the request of the RAAF !!! so I doubt any funny business went on !
Read more here.
Self-interest the only principle guiding China
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500N
Thank you for the info, and a very interesting article.
Thank you for the info, and a very interesting article.
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Martin
I get pissed off, not at you but the media for not doing the research,
which frankly is so easy for a journo to do today.
No denying " Australia, New Zealand, the USA" work closely, we do have a defence pact plus both NZ and Aust have joint US listening bases
I get pissed off, not at you but the media for not doing the research,
which frankly is so easy for a journo to do today.
No denying " Australia, New Zealand, the USA" work closely, we do have a defence pact plus both NZ and Aust have joint US listening bases
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As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?
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As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?
Ironic is it not?
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"As ever, watching an event unfold on a subject you have vague knowledge of, it is stunning the crass ignorance of many journalists and their reporting. It makes me wonder how accurate the reporting is on subjects I know nothing about...?"
How true. I gave up my daily paper after the dross being reported about a project that I was working in. We all tend to base our opinions and beliefs upon facts reported by external agencies so it is sad when they get their facts completely wrong.
How true. I gave up my daily paper after the dross being reported about a project that I was working in. We all tend to base our opinions and beliefs upon facts reported by external agencies so it is sad when they get their facts completely wrong.
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Now I know why the Gov't and AMSA provide multiple daily updates and pictures via the nicely packaged media kits, etc. It means the Media can't cock it up !!!
Anyway, back to China being sidelined, I happened to be on the Australian Defence web site to see what photos they had and they have 3 photos of the Chinese aircraft or people.
This caption follows them all.
(I have cut out some text about our acting PM, Mr Truss)
Description/Caption
"A Senior Colonel from the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) speaks to the media at RAAF Base Pearce ............................ "Mr Truss met with RAAF air crew, maintenance, security and operational staff. The personnel from RAAF Base Pearce and four AP-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft are part of a strong team together with a Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) P-3K2 Orion, a United States Navy (USN) P-8 Poseidon aircraft and two People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Ilyushin IL-76 which recently arrived to support the search.
The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) led search area is located 1500 nautical miles to the west-southwest of Perth and takes in an area of over 175,000 square nautical miles of ocean."
Really looks like they have been sidelined !!!
Anyway, back to China being sidelined, I happened to be on the Australian Defence web site to see what photos they had and they have 3 photos of the Chinese aircraft or people.
This caption follows them all.
(I have cut out some text about our acting PM, Mr Truss)
Description/Caption
"A Senior Colonel from the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) speaks to the media at RAAF Base Pearce ............................ "Mr Truss met with RAAF air crew, maintenance, security and operational staff. The personnel from RAAF Base Pearce and four AP-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft are part of a strong team together with a Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) P-3K2 Orion, a United States Navy (USN) P-8 Poseidon aircraft and two People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Ilyushin IL-76 which recently arrived to support the search.
The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) led search area is located 1500 nautical miles to the west-southwest of Perth and takes in an area of over 175,000 square nautical miles of ocean."
Really looks like they have been sidelined !!!
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RNZAF continues search for MH370 - TV News Video | TVNZ
The newly appointed CAF RNZAF.....smooth as they come!
There is at least one pilot on the RNZAF P3K2 who is RAF. Seedcorn?
The newly appointed CAF RNZAF.....smooth as they come!
There is at least one pilot on the RNZAF P3K2 who is RAF. Seedcorn?